5 ms·

Ask Michael Scheuer: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgj08e_michael-scheuer-on-bin-laden-s-true-motives_news#.UbPIvdvMdXI http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgj

by ucee054 13y ago

Ask Michael Scheuer: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgj08e_michael-scheuer-on-bin-laden-s-true-motives_news#.UbPIvdvMdXI http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgj08e_michael-scheuer-on-b...

Alex3917 13y ago
Didn't Bin Laden also supposedly say that he was against the US because of the lack of action taken on global warming?
twoodfin 13y ago
His argument is that radical Islamists hate us for what we do, not who we are. But we do what we do because of who we are. That's nearly a tautology in a democracy. We support Israel because its people largely share our values. We threw Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait and maintained a presence in Saudi Arabia because we support and defend the sovereignty of our allies, particularly when those allies supply vital resources. We continued to prop up Mubarak because we thought he was better than the alternative, etc. All of these are policies reached through a free, democratic process, which has not been a hallmark of those societies which have welcomed Al Qaeda into their midst. Also, have you heard of Sayyid Qutb? Just curious.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Also remember when all the fatwas were proclaimed for a Danish newspapers publication of a cartoon featuring the Prophet Muhammad? That's not even considering the issue of extremist religion and Sharia law, as led to the shooting and near-murder of Malala Yousafzai. Islamist culture is not entirely compatible with Western democracy, just as far-right fundamentalist Christian extremism is not entirely compatible with Western democracy (e.g. the 1996 Olympic Park bombing).
  - jckt 13y ago
    Why do you say Islamist and not radical Islamist, while you say Christian extremism and not just Christian?
    - mpyne 13y ago
      I'm using Islamist as the term was first defined, which means exactly "Islamic terrorism". As far as I know there's never been a popularly-agreed-on meaning of "Islamist" other than that, if you're referring to the peaceful followers of Allah the term is Muslim, or perhaps Islamic, but never Islamist. Christian on the other hand is already overloaded with many meanings and I don't feel like inventing new words when I can simply add adjectives as appropriate. Pray tell, is my explanation sufficient?
      - jckt 13y ago
        Sorry, I didn't realise that such a term was even widely used. Accepted!
        mpyne 13y ago
        Well, it's certainly a pity that Islamic terrorism is a big enough threat that they had to invent a Huffman-coded word for it. Though perhaps we can treat it as a relief that Christian terrorism is no longer so prevalent that we had to make a shorter term for it after we invented 'terrorist'. Though I hear 'Crusader' is a close equivalent among many Muslims, for obvious reasons. I don't think Americans or most West. Europeans would understand that as a negative connotation though.
      - tome 13y ago
        "Islamism" certainly does not mean "Islamic terrorism". It means a belief that Islam should be a force in the public sphere, not just a private religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
        gngeal 13y ago
        Which is precisely the thing that is incompatible with Western democracy. Of would you like to amend the First Amendment?
        13y ago
- ucee054 13y ago
  But we do what we do because of who we are So you are telling me that the "decadence" of modern Western society simply FORCED the USA to support the Shah, Mubarak, Ben Ali, the dictators of Bahrain etc etc etc down through history? Like the Western world couldn't possibly have beer and miniskirts without installing dictators in or invading other countries? Also, have you heard of crude oil? Just curious.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    If you think OBL would have been thrilled with a peaceful, democratic, Islamic world with all the freedoms and associated "decadence" we see in the West, just so long as the U.S. had never interfered there, I don't think you are seeing the whole picture. Obviously the U.S. record in the Middle East is not spotless. But it's not as if we haven't been a force for good there on more than one occasion. The Suez Crisis comes to mind immediately, as does Desert Shield/Storm. Our record there isn't better or worse than our record in, say, Central and South America, yet for some reason, Nicaraguans and Chileans aren't blowing themselves up in Times Square.
    - ucee054 13y ago
      This has actually been studied: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terrorism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Log... http://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/0812973380 http://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/... TL;DR People do not run kamikaze attacks against other people for being less religiously conservative than they are, they run kamikaze attacks against occupiers.
      - twoodfin 13y ago
        Pray tell, which Islamic nations was the U.S. "occupying" on 9/11? We're getting way off topic, re: decadence and "hating freedom", but let me try to bring it back. Why blow up the World Trade Center? Surely that was a symbolic act, against a quintessentially civilian target.

by ucee054 13y ago

Ask Michael Scheuer: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgj08e_michael-scheuer-on-bin-laden-s-true-motives_news#.UbPIvdvMdXI http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgj08e_michael-scheuer-on-b...

Alex3917 13y ago

Didn't Bin Laden also supposedly say that he was against the US because of the lack of action taken on global warming?

twoodfin 13y ago

His argument is that radical Islamists hate us for what we do, not who we are. But we do what we do because of who we are. That's nearly a tautology in a democracy. We support Israel because its people largely share our values. We threw Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait and maintained a presence in Saudi Arabia because we support and defend the sovereignty of our allies, particularly when those allies supply vital resources. We continued to prop up Mubarak because we thought he was better than the alternative, etc. All of these are policies reached through a free, democratic process, which has not been a hallmark of those societies which have welcomed Al Qaeda into their midst. Also, have you heard of Sayyid Qutb? Just curious.

mpyne 13y ago
Also remember when all the fatwas were proclaimed for a Danish newspapers publication of a cartoon featuring the Prophet Muhammad? That's not even considering the issue of extremist religion and Sharia law, as led to the shooting and near-murder of Malala Yousafzai. Islamist culture is not entirely compatible with Western democracy, just as far-right fundamentalist Christian extremism is not entirely compatible with Western democracy (e.g. the 1996 Olympic Park bombing).
- jckt 13y ago
  Why do you say Islamist and not radical Islamist, while you say Christian extremism and not just Christian?
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I'm using Islamist as the term was first defined, which means exactly "Islamic terrorism". As far as I know there's never been a popularly-agreed-on meaning of "Islamist" other than that, if you're referring to the peaceful followers of Allah the term is Muslim, or perhaps Islamic, but never Islamist. Christian on the other hand is already overloaded with many meanings and I don't feel like inventing new words when I can simply add adjectives as appropriate. Pray tell, is my explanation sufficient?
    - jckt 13y ago
      Sorry, I didn't realise that such a term was even widely used. Accepted!
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Well, it's certainly a pity that Islamic terrorism is a big enough threat that they had to invent a Huffman-coded word for it. Though perhaps we can treat it as a relief that Christian terrorism is no longer so prevalent that we had to make a shorter term for it after we invented 'terrorist'. Though I hear 'Crusader' is a close equivalent among many Muslims, for obvious reasons. I don't think Americans or most West. Europeans would understand that as a negative connotation though.
    - tome 13y ago
      "Islamism" certainly does not mean "Islamic terrorism". It means a belief that Islam should be a force in the public sphere, not just a private religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
      - gngeal 13y ago
        Which is precisely the thing that is incompatible with Western democracy. Of would you like to amend the First Amendment?
        13y ago
ucee054 13y ago
But we do what we do because of who we are So you are telling me that the "decadence" of modern Western society simply FORCED the USA to support the Shah, Mubarak, Ben Ali, the dictators of Bahrain etc etc etc down through history? Like the Western world couldn't possibly have beer and miniskirts without installing dictators in or invading other countries? Also, have you heard of crude oil? Just curious.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  If you think OBL would have been thrilled with a peaceful, democratic, Islamic world with all the freedoms and associated "decadence" we see in the West, just so long as the U.S. had never interfered there, I don't think you are seeing the whole picture. Obviously the U.S. record in the Middle East is not spotless. But it's not as if we haven't been a force for good there on more than one occasion. The Suez Crisis comes to mind immediately, as does Desert Shield/Storm. Our record there isn't better or worse than our record in, say, Central and South America, yet for some reason, Nicaraguans and Chileans aren't blowing themselves up in Times Square.
  - ucee054 13y ago
    This has actually been studied: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terrorism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Log... http://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/0812973380 http://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/... TL;DR People do not run kamikaze attacks against other people for being less religiously conservative than they are, they run kamikaze attacks against occupiers.
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      Pray tell, which Islamic nations was the U.S. "occupying" on 9/11? We're getting way off topic, re: decadence and "hating freedom", but let me try to bring it back. Why blow up the World Trade Center? Surely that was a symbolic act, against a quintessentially civilian target.