5 ms·

To be fair, a lot of these companies may not have the funding to hire paid employees. It is also often more of a burden on the technical manager to manage the i

by druska 13y ago

To be fair, a lot of these companies may not have the funding to hire paid employees. It is also often more of a burden on the technical manager to manage the interns in the first place. It really is good experience for the intern, and if they actually had experience in the first place then they likely won't be applying to unpaid internships.

vkou 13y ago
Unpaid internships are a gross circumvention of minimum wage laws. Either the interns are there to learn (In which case, they should not be working on anything that provides the employer with value) - or they are employees. If your business can't afford to pay its employees, you should probably not be in business.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Not to mention that they select in favour of those who can afford to live in a high cost of living area without an income.
- doktrin 13y ago
  > Either the interns are there to learn (In which case, they should not be working on anything that provides the employer with value) I feel pretty strongly about the exploitation of free labor, but I'm not sure I agree with this point. Tasks from which a potential intern may learn the most are quite likely to be tasks which create value for the employer. I'm not even sure what work an intern could possibly do that did not generate value for a team, other than literally digging a ditch and re-filling it. > If your business can't afford to pay its employees, you should probably not be in business. Money isn't the only way to pay employees. A learning experience can be just as valuable (if not more so) than some financial compensation. This is highly situational, and can easily be used as justification to get cheap unpaid labor, but nonetheless remains true.
  - gyardley 13y ago
    Tasks from which a potential intern may learn the most are quite likely to be tasks which create value for the employer. Sounds plausible to me, along with your point about learning experience, but the comment you're responding to is just reflecting American federal labor law. According to the feds, paid internships can only be for the benefit of the intern, not the employer - if you're gaining from it, you're breaking the law.
    - doktrin 13y ago
      Fair point. I wasn't aware of this, and have since read the relevant DOL fact sheet [1]. [1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
- jdreaver 13y ago
  Why is circumventing minimum wage laws a bad thing? If you don't have the skills to be paid $9/hr (or whatever it is nowadays), then unpaid internships are awesome, because they help you get there. How about this idea: let people offer unpaid internships, and let potential employees willingly decide for themselves, based on their own circumstances and free will, whether or not to take them. I don't see any harm in two human's voluntary reaching an internship agreement if they both benefit from it.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    Because those who might benefit most from unpaid internships are often those from disadvantaged groups and the lower classes seeking social mobility. But doing an unpaid internship necessarily demands an external source of money to cover living expenses. So there are many people who would in theory be happy to do an unpaid internship but are unable to do so practically.
    - jdreaver 13y ago
      > So there are many people who would in theory be happy to do an unpaid internship but are unable to do so practically. Indeed. However, there are yet others who would benefit and can do so practically. The fact that they exist and positions get filled means people are getting experience and making ends meet. By forcing the minimum wage on these internships, they don't reappear with a higher wage, most of them simply disappear. The opportunity is totally lost.
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        Assuming that the demand for real jobs in the sectors that are hiring interns remains constant without the unpaid internships then this might in fact be a good thing. An opportunity that is only realistically available to those from more affluent backgrounds (who already have a bunch more advantages) actually translates into a disadvantage for those who are unable to take them, so it is somewhat a zero sum game. Especially if they become a defacto requirement for the best jobs in some sectors.
  - 13y ago
ryguytilidie 13y ago
I don't understand the logic behind "we have paid employees, and we need someone to produce something profitable, but we can't afford to pay them." If that is the case, you simply are not a business.

by druska 13y ago

vkou 13y ago

Unpaid internships are a gross circumvention of minimum wage laws. Either the interns are there to learn (In which case, they should not be working on anything that provides the employer with value) - or they are employees. If your business can't afford to pay its employees, you should probably not be in business.

jiggy2011 13y ago
Not to mention that they select in favour of those who can afford to live in a high cost of living area without an income.
doktrin 13y ago
> Either the interns are there to learn (In which case, they should not be working on anything that provides the employer with value) I feel pretty strongly about the exploitation of free labor, but I'm not sure I agree with this point. Tasks from which a potential intern may learn the most are quite likely to be tasks which create value for the employer. I'm not even sure what work an intern could possibly do that did not generate value for a team, other than literally digging a ditch and re-filling it. > If your business can't afford to pay its employees, you should probably not be in business. Money isn't the only way to pay employees. A learning experience can be just as valuable (if not more so) than some financial compensation. This is highly situational, and can easily be used as justification to get cheap unpaid labor, but nonetheless remains true.
- gyardley 13y ago
  Tasks from which a potential intern may learn the most are quite likely to be tasks which create value for the employer. Sounds plausible to me, along with your point about learning experience, but the comment you're responding to is just reflecting American federal labor law. According to the feds, paid internships can only be for the benefit of the intern, not the employer - if you're gaining from it, you're breaking the law.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    Fair point. I wasn't aware of this, and have since read the relevant DOL fact sheet [1]. [1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
jdreaver 13y ago
Why is circumventing minimum wage laws a bad thing? If you don't have the skills to be paid $9/hr (or whatever it is nowadays), then unpaid internships are awesome, because they help you get there. How about this idea: let people offer unpaid internships, and let potential employees willingly decide for themselves, based on their own circumstances and free will, whether or not to take them. I don't see any harm in two human's voluntary reaching an internship agreement if they both benefit from it.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Because those who might benefit most from unpaid internships are often those from disadvantaged groups and the lower classes seeking social mobility. But doing an unpaid internship necessarily demands an external source of money to cover living expenses. So there are many people who would in theory be happy to do an unpaid internship but are unable to do so practically.
  - jdreaver 13y ago
    > So there are many people who would in theory be happy to do an unpaid internship but are unable to do so practically. Indeed. However, there are yet others who would benefit and can do so practically. The fact that they exist and positions get filled means people are getting experience and making ends meet. By forcing the minimum wage on these internships, they don't reappear with a higher wage, most of them simply disappear. The opportunity is totally lost.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      Assuming that the demand for real jobs in the sectors that are hiring interns remains constant without the unpaid internships then this might in fact be a good thing. An opportunity that is only realistically available to those from more affluent backgrounds (who already have a bunch more advantages) actually translates into a disadvantage for those who are unable to take them, so it is somewhat a zero sum game. Especially if they become a defacto requirement for the best jobs in some sectors.
- 13y ago

ryguytilidie 13y ago

I don't understand the logic behind "we have paid employees, and we need someone to produce something profitable, but we can't afford to pay them." If that is the case, you simply are not a business.