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Tesla said it best: "Tesla will sell its cars the way it wants. If some states don't allow that, then Tesla will simply sell them elsewhere." When a piece of a

by maeon3 13y ago

Tesla said it best: "Tesla will sell its cars the way it wants. If some states don't allow that, then Tesla will simply sell them elsewhere." When a piece of a neural network becomes corrupt and entrenched beyond repair, (cancerous) the tumor or cancer fights to protect itself, there are two solutions to these kinds of problems. 1. One solution is what Musk is doing, treat the dealerships as a cancerous growth in the mind, and pathways are built to bypass it, route around it. Don't fight it, don't fix it, don't interact with it. Establish as many barriers to its growth as possible and starve it so it doesn't grow. Eventually the superior paths created by Musk are the preferred ones to use, and the defective paths are garbage collected. The cancer will seeks to prevent the growth of new pathways because it does not want to be garbage collected. 2. Remove the growth. When the surgeon finds a tumor or cancer in your brain, it doesn't try to coax it to become better or try to "enhance it" to be better. A hole is cut in the head, and lasers and scalpels are used to physically remove the cancer. These are the only two options to deal with cancerous growths working only to maintain its take on the system.

ajross 13y ago
The metaphor is cute, but maybe overstated. Tesla isn't doing this because it's what a self healing network would do. Tesla is doing this because it's a rapidly-growing startup whose production facilities are heavily oversubscribed already. They have no net downsides to giving up the "Texas" market for now, because they don't have enough cars to sell even without Texas (and the handful of other such states). Eventually that won't be true. Once ramped up, they'll want that Texas market. And at that point someone will have to bend. Musk's bet is that at that point Texas will cave because they don't want to deny their voters the chance to purchase this great new car. Texas's "bet" (really the dealership lobbyists' bet) is that Tesla ultimately won't be successful and that by holding their ground here they will discourage other manufacturers from trying the same thing. IMHO, things make much more sense when you argue in fact instead of metaphor.
- jack-r-abbit 13y ago
  >Once ramped up, they'll want that Texas market. And at that point someone will have to bend. My money is on Tesla coming out on top here. Musk strikes me as the type of person that would rather give up sales while holding a huge "Fuck Texas" sign than to give in. Edit: Added the parent comment I was responding to. Yes, Tesla is playing nice right now. That puts them in a better public opinion. But eventually they'll either step up their game or walk away from Texas. I don't see them giving in. But only time will tell here.
  - pchristensen 13y ago
    Before you sharpen that mental image too much, remember that Musk (SpaceX) owns a rocket testing facility there.
  - skaevola 13y ago
    Musk is getting along pretty well with the lobbyists here. See bill to close the beach for his launch site.
- maeon3 13y ago
  If the Texas Auto dealers were smart, they would buy some lobbyists to give extra incentives to Tesla to bring them on board with the corrupt system. For example, the dealerships selling the Tesla vehicle at no cost, or maybe even provide an additional $3000-7000 tax credit only for Texans. Or perhaps giving Tesla a bushel of cash for every Tesla sold (temporally) through dealerships. Then when Musk is on board and massive profits streaming, the credits will revert back to burdens on Texans. The cancerous dealer network remains with us for another few decades until the next chance at a disruptive technology to remove it. Car Dealerships should go the way of newspapers. Imagine if newspapers used their financial might to squish the Internet when it was just a wire between two research facilities? If newspapers hired lobbyists to create laws making it illegal to route around newspapers, then could they how long could they have delayed the internet?
  - eksith 13y ago
    >If the Texas Auto dealers were smart... That's really the operative phrase isn't it? I think we've already established that some people aren't above burning down their own house to evict an unwanted guest. As it has already been pointed out though, Texans are good at one more thing: Voting people out. You're getting to the real heart of the problem though. The dealers are taking the retro-futuristic approach the newspapers didn't take with the internet. But then the newspapers didn't know just how disruptive that wire will become either.
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  > IMHO, things make much more sense when you argue in fact instead of metaphor. This is true. However, are you actually arguing in fact? Your statements read as an outside agent judging the intentions and motivations of other agents. Perhaps you're part of one of the groups and actually possess insider knowledge here? Another potential outsider's reading of the bets and motivations at play (this taken from nearly 4 years working with auto dealerships): The dealers have built up reliance on a system that allows them to screw over consumers in myriad ways that make them very good money every time a consumer needs a vehicle. They've already seen sales erode due to the economy, as well as the rise of internet-powered sales channels like craigslist, ebay, etc. While they cannot do anything about the former, the latter has been generally approached with dealers getting involved in listing their vehicles on the internet in an effort to constantly re-inject themselves into once private p2p marketplaces. The dealers no doubt want Tesla to be successful as a manufacturer, they just do not want to allow a new precedent to establish wherein they are not standing as the gatekeepers between consumers and they cars they want. This has been a lucrative business model for them for a very long time. Everybody knows consumers hate it, and yet there's no other way to get your hands on a brand new car. Tesla has a fair amount of consumer interest, and dealers recognize this. So they want to make money off it, which will lead to even higher prices for consumers. If Tesla succeeds, it's going to establish a manufacturer-operated dealership that vies directly with the existing model, leading to a situation where consumers may value that relationship higher than the one they've had to deal with for so long. Tesla will have an interesting-to-watch dynamic develop between its customers because the relationship will be direct -- right now, every other manufacturer establishes indirect relationships through the dealer proxy. In the Tesla-operated model, there will be no way for dealers to compete with the Tesla dealerships being the only one's with the new cars--this isn't like competing with the Honda dealership across town. If the Tesla dealerships succeed and consumers take note, dealers would rightly fear other manufacturers following in its footsteps and setting up some trial direct dealerships. If that succeeds ... well, we can all see where that will lead. However, despite that kind of hopeful scenario, I think it is an irrational fear. Most manufacturers rely on dealers to more evenly distribute the risk of producing and selling expensive assets that require a lot of space (floorplan isn't free, and it's a significant dealer cost (which is why you should always buy the oldest car on the lot (measured in # days it has been in dealer inventory))). I seriously doubt automakers are very interested in taking on the work and headache of setting up more distribution networks and doing all of the various things dealers do now that actually serve their local markets. It seems more likely that they're trying to put out the wrong fire here. Lastly, I'm not sure if this is what you were getting at, so apologies if it's just a longer stating of what you meant. Your comment was ambiguous as to what kind of success you think the Texas dealers are concerned with--ramping up the production facilities successfully so Tesla has enough cars to sell into the Texas market, or winning the fight to sell directly to consumers.
- codex 13y ago
  At a Tesla store last week, I was quoted 6-8 weeks for a Model S. How does that jive with being massively oversubscribed?
  - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
    Maybe I am not understanding the meaning of "massively oversubscribed" but I thought it meant that the demand significantly exceeds the supply. 2 months to deliver a car is a decent stretch of time considering you can go to just about any dealer and drive away with the car you want. And if they don't have it on the lot, they'll find it and trade with another dealer within a day or 2. They all have inventory. I take it that Tesla doesn't keep a lot of inventory on hand.
    - codex 13y ago
      Elon has said that demand will outstrip supply for the next several years--but six to eight weeks is pretty much normal for any custom built car from Ford, MINI, BMW, Mercedes, etc.
criley 13y ago
Such absolutist, black and white descriptions of these situations are, quite frankly, terrible. I mean, you take business and politics and compare it to a life or death struggle against cancer. Could you be any less fair to the interests of the other side? You could, extremely easily, reverse the tables and let the massive automotive industry and the millions upon millions of people in it's employ describe Musk and his electric startups as a cancer on one of the backbones of American industry. That his "I won't come to the table" policies of "my way or the highway" are disease on a century old industry that has provided for multiple generations of American's livelihoods. I don't see how your ridiculous demagoguery does anything but turn this into a "us vs them" false dichotomy. I support Musk and Tesla but comments like this are just ridiculous. The guy is selling a few thousand $80000 ultra-luxury sportscars. Let's not decry the end of a century old industry _quite_ yet with such dramatic language, eh?
crapshoot101 13y ago
Oh dear god, this is overwrought. Elon Musk is not the righteous cause, and everyone opposing him is not the devil, and this is not some dramatic showdown (to paraphrase a line from Serenity). I support changes to the dealer system, but when you start the arguement by suggesting your opponent is akin to a cancer, you're not showing any interest in that. If the dealer system changes, it should do so for everyone, not just Tesla.
- saraid216 13y ago
  Completely OT, but what was the original line? I don't recognize it and it's making me feel like I'm letting down my Browncoat cred. :(
  - crapshoot101 13y ago
    No worries - the original line is from the Operative to Mal, in one of my favorite scenes: "Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena." followed by Inara saying "And that's not incense."
    - saraid216 13y ago
      And now my mental movie player has it. Thanks. :P
- maeon3 13y ago
  The dealer system cannot be salvaged, it is using the law to subvert Justice. You are part of the cancer by suggesting we try to massage the cancer instead of removing it as the useless appendage it is that only hassles customers and provides no useful service other than putting up a barrier to buying cars at the expense of people who want to buy them. When I see a thug standing by the pool of water, and punching everyone who comes and gets water for their lunch money, I don't enter a dialog with the thug for proposed changes. I remove it, for the good of all.
themstheones 13y ago
That's one of the most mixed metaphors of all time. Congratulations.

by maeon3 13y ago

ajross 13y ago

The metaphor is cute, but maybe overstated. Tesla isn't doing this because it's what a self healing network would do. Tesla is doing this because it's a rapidly-growing startup whose production facilities are heavily oversubscribed already. They have no net downsides to giving up the "Texas" market for now, because they don't have enough cars to sell even without Texas (and the handful of other such states). Eventually that won't be true. Once ramped up, they'll want that Texas market. And at that point someone will have to bend. Musk's bet is that at that point Texas will cave because they don't want to deny their voters the chance to purchase this great new car. Texas's "bet" (really the dealership lobbyists' bet) is that Tesla ultimately won't be successful and that by holding their ground here they will discourage other manufacturers from trying the same thing. IMHO, things make much more sense when you argue in fact instead of metaphor.

jack-r-abbit 13y ago
>Once ramped up, they'll want that Texas market. And at that point someone will have to bend. My money is on Tesla coming out on top here. Musk strikes me as the type of person that would rather give up sales while holding a huge "Fuck Texas" sign than to give in. Edit: Added the parent comment I was responding to. Yes, Tesla is playing nice right now. That puts them in a better public opinion. But eventually they'll either step up their game or walk away from Texas. I don't see them giving in. But only time will tell here.
- pchristensen 13y ago
  Before you sharpen that mental image too much, remember that Musk (SpaceX) owns a rocket testing facility there.
- skaevola 13y ago
  Musk is getting along pretty well with the lobbyists here. See bill to close the beach for his launch site.
maeon3 13y ago
If the Texas Auto dealers were smart, they would buy some lobbyists to give extra incentives to Tesla to bring them on board with the corrupt system. For example, the dealerships selling the Tesla vehicle at no cost, or maybe even provide an additional $3000-7000 tax credit only for Texans. Or perhaps giving Tesla a bushel of cash for every Tesla sold (temporally) through dealerships. Then when Musk is on board and massive profits streaming, the credits will revert back to burdens on Texans. The cancerous dealer network remains with us for another few decades until the next chance at a disruptive technology to remove it. Car Dealerships should go the way of newspapers. Imagine if newspapers used their financial might to squish the Internet when it was just a wire between two research facilities? If newspapers hired lobbyists to create laws making it illegal to route around newspapers, then could they how long could they have delayed the internet?
- eksith 13y ago
  >If the Texas Auto dealers were smart... That's really the operative phrase isn't it? I think we've already established that some people aren't above burning down their own house to evict an unwanted guest. As it has already been pointed out though, Texans are good at one more thing: Voting people out. You're getting to the real heart of the problem though. The dealers are taking the retro-futuristic approach the newspapers didn't take with the internet. But then the newspapers didn't know just how disruptive that wire will become either.
bobwaycott 13y ago
> IMHO, things make much more sense when you argue in fact instead of metaphor. This is true. However, are you actually arguing in fact? Your statements read as an outside agent judging the intentions and motivations of other agents. Perhaps you're part of one of the groups and actually possess insider knowledge here? Another potential outsider's reading of the bets and motivations at play (this taken from nearly 4 years working with auto dealerships): The dealers have built up reliance on a system that allows them to screw over consumers in myriad ways that make them very good money every time a consumer needs a vehicle. They've already seen sales erode due to the economy, as well as the rise of internet-powered sales channels like craigslist, ebay, etc. While they cannot do anything about the former, the latter has been generally approached with dealers getting involved in listing their vehicles on the internet in an effort to constantly re-inject themselves into once private p2p marketplaces. The dealers no doubt want Tesla to be successful as a manufacturer, they just do not want to allow a new precedent to establish wherein they are not standing as the gatekeepers between consumers and they cars they want. This has been a lucrative business model for them for a very long time. Everybody knows consumers hate it, and yet there's no other way to get your hands on a brand new car. Tesla has a fair amount of consumer interest, and dealers recognize this. So they want to make money off it, which will lead to even higher prices for consumers. If Tesla succeeds, it's going to establish a manufacturer-operated dealership that vies directly with the existing model, leading to a situation where consumers may value that relationship higher than the one they've had to deal with for so long. Tesla will have an interesting-to-watch dynamic develop between its customers because the relationship will be direct -- right now, every other manufacturer establishes indirect relationships through the dealer proxy. In the Tesla-operated model, there will be no way for dealers to compete with the Tesla dealerships being the only one's with the new cars--this isn't like competing with the Honda dealership across town. If the Tesla dealerships succeed and consumers take note, dealers would rightly fear other manufacturers following in its footsteps and setting up some trial direct dealerships. If that succeeds ... well, we can all see where that will lead. However, despite that kind of hopeful scenario, I think it is an irrational fear. Most manufacturers rely on dealers to more evenly distribute the risk of producing and selling expensive assets that require a lot of space (floorplan isn't free, and it's a significant dealer cost (which is why you should always buy the oldest car on the lot (measured in # days it has been in dealer inventory))). I seriously doubt automakers are very interested in taking on the work and headache of setting up more distribution networks and doing all of the various things dealers do now that actually serve their local markets. It seems more likely that they're trying to put out the wrong fire here. Lastly, I'm not sure if this is what you were getting at, so apologies if it's just a longer stating of what you meant. Your comment was ambiguous as to what kind of success you think the Texas dealers are concerned with--ramping up the production facilities successfully so Tesla has enough cars to sell into the Texas market, or winning the fight to sell directly to consumers.
codex 13y ago
At a Tesla store last week, I was quoted 6-8 weeks for a Model S. How does that jive with being massively oversubscribed?
- jack-r-abbit 13y ago
  Maybe I am not understanding the meaning of "massively oversubscribed" but I thought it meant that the demand significantly exceeds the supply. 2 months to deliver a car is a decent stretch of time considering you can go to just about any dealer and drive away with the car you want. And if they don't have it on the lot, they'll find it and trade with another dealer within a day or 2. They all have inventory. I take it that Tesla doesn't keep a lot of inventory on hand.
  - codex 13y ago
    Elon has said that demand will outstrip supply for the next several years--but six to eight weeks is pretty much normal for any custom built car from Ford, MINI, BMW, Mercedes, etc.

criley 13y ago

Such absolutist, black and white descriptions of these situations are, quite frankly, terrible. I mean, you take business and politics and compare it to a life or death struggle against cancer. Could you be any less fair to the interests of the other side? You could, extremely easily, reverse the tables and let the massive automotive industry and the millions upon millions of people in it's employ describe Musk and his electric startups as a cancer on one of the backbones of American industry. That his "I won't come to the table" policies of "my way or the highway" are disease on a century old industry that has provided for multiple generations of American's livelihoods. I don't see how your ridiculous demagoguery does anything but turn this into a "us vs them" false dichotomy. I support Musk and Tesla but comments like this are just ridiculous. The guy is selling a few thousand $80000 ultra-luxury sportscars. Let's not decry the end of a century old industry _quite_ yet with such dramatic language, eh?

crapshoot101 13y ago

Oh dear god, this is overwrought. Elon Musk is not the righteous cause, and everyone opposing him is not the devil, and this is not some dramatic showdown (to paraphrase a line from Serenity). I support changes to the dealer system, but when you start the arguement by suggesting your opponent is akin to a cancer, you're not showing any interest in that. If the dealer system changes, it should do so for everyone, not just Tesla.

saraid216 13y ago
Completely OT, but what was the original line? I don't recognize it and it's making me feel like I'm letting down my Browncoat cred. :(
- crapshoot101 13y ago
  No worries - the original line is from the Operative to Mal, in one of my favorite scenes: "Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena." followed by Inara saying "And that's not incense."
  - saraid216 13y ago
    And now my mental movie player has it. Thanks. :P
maeon3 13y ago
The dealer system cannot be salvaged, it is using the law to subvert Justice. You are part of the cancer by suggesting we try to massage the cancer instead of removing it as the useless appendage it is that only hassles customers and provides no useful service other than putting up a barrier to buying cars at the expense of people who want to buy them. When I see a thug standing by the pool of water, and punching everyone who comes and gets water for their lunch money, I don't enter a dialog with the thug for proposed changes. I remove it, for the good of all.

themstheones 13y ago

That's one of the most mixed metaphors of all time. Congratulations.