6 ms·

Waiting 30 minutes is still a dealbreaker for a lot of people. How about switching out those batteries like propane tanks. I'll let someone else figure out the

by pixie_ 13y ago

Waiting 30 minutes is still a dealbreaker for a lot of people. How about switching out those batteries like propane tanks. I'll let someone else figure out the technical details of that.

kiba 13y ago
You're going to complain about taking a 30 minutes break after a 2 hours drive? Also, if you charge your car every night, you should have enough range to drive to work.
- pixie_ 13y ago
  If you think having to take a 30 minute break after 2 hours of driving ISN'T a big deal then you are way out of touch.
  - SwellJoe 13y ago
    I drive long distances very frequently (I live in a motorhome, spent most of four years travelling full-time, and currently now travel about 3-4 months out of the year). I recommend this kind of pace, regardless of whether you need to fill up or not. It makes for a happier journey, and a more fulfilling one. But, then again, gas stations aren't exactly where I want to stop for 30 minutes every two hours. My 30 minute stops are rest areas, local or state parks, interesting restaurants, lakes, monuments, etc. It's rare that I want to spend 30 minutes at a gas station. So, while I think stopping for 30 minutes every 2 hours isn't a big deal, and I don't think I'm way out of touch. But, since I wouldn't get to determine where I stop for 30 minutes ever 2 hours in the current Tesla scenario, it is a big deal. Presumably, and allegedly, this 30 minute problem will soon fade. I'm impressed that a cross-country trip will be possible this year. That's amazing progress; I'm blown away by Musk's vision and ability to deliver it.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    I've driven straight across the country (2700 miles per trip) several times in the past 5 years, and stopping 30 minutes every few hours is not a big deal. Unless you are into amphetamines or falling asleep at the wheel, it is the only way to do it for any extended amount of time.
    - waterlesscloud 13y ago
      "Unless you are into amphetamines or falling asleep at the wheel, it is the only way to do it for any extended amount of time." This is simply not a true statement. It may be your personal preference, but it is not at all universal.
      - rdl 13y ago
        I can do SF to Vegas without stopping (except for fuel, and in a diesel truck with extra tanks, without stopping). My preference is generally top stop and have a meal at Harris Ranch, too (which, conveniently, is where the supercharger is), or at In-N-Out in Bakersfield, but that's about it. SF to Seattle is the really hard one. SF to Portland is something I can do (without starting absurdly early, or maybe even after a full day of doing other stuff), but going all the way to Seattle is hard, and stopping in Portland seems silly (since it's only 3h more to Seattle). Unfortunately, everything between Redding/Weed and Portland seems to be Methland.
        markvdb 13y ago
        Safely driving over 1300km (edit: SF to Seattle) without stopping is impossible. http://drowsydriving.org/about/facts-and-stats/ http://drowsydriving.org/about/facts-and-stats/ Please adjust your driving behavior.
        rdl 13y ago
        It's 636 miles to Portland. I've averaged in the 70mph range on that trip, since there are stretches of I-5 where much higher speeds are fairly safe (and the speed limit is 75 on a lot of it). 9h of concentration isn't that unreasonable, since you do need to stop for gas once (in Oregon, usually, which means it's slow). San Jose to Vegas is 523 miles, and doing that in 6-7 hours is quite feasible (although it's entirely possible for it to take 12-14 hours with traffic on I-5 and I-15 if things go wrong)
        Retric 13y ago
- baddox 13y ago
  Twenty percent of your road time spent not moving? Yes, I would complain about that. I don't think anyone who has taken any considerable road trip would find this strange.
  - joshdance 13y ago
    Most car owners, including Tesla owners, don't take that many road trips. You drive in the range you charge it at night. If you do take a road trip, schedule the stop for dinner at the same time as the recharge.
    - atwebb 13y ago
      What if I'm driving from the mid-US to a coast? It's around 8-10 hours of just drive time.
    - baddox 13y ago
      The whole point of this transcontinental charge network, at least as it has been marketed, is for road trips. If you're driving across the country it's unlikely that you will want to stop for 30 minutes every 2 hours. I could see two or three 30 minute stops per day at the most.
- 1123581321 13y ago
  A typical person in the US used to driving distances would have no trouble driving eight hours in a row stopping only for 1-2 gas breaks and one bathroom/food break. Edit: and two such people in a car could easily drive 12-24 hours alternating. For example, my friends drive between Texas and Illinois and expect to complete the trip in under 24 hours. It's okay that the Tesla isn't going after that market yet, but getting them to change their habits for the car is unlikely to happen. That's okay!
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    > my friends drive between Texas and Illinois That could be anywhere from ~430 miles, in which case you can probably get there by starting with a full battery and making a single charge stop, to more than 1400 miles. Please be more specific as to the origin and destination.
    - 1123581321 13y ago
      I was thinking of a distance for which arriving in under 24 hours would be doable but not without frequent stops. To use a specific example, these people drive from Chicago to Kerrville which is about 19 hours according to Google Maps. Arriving in 24 hours would probably not be possible even if no time was wasted getting into and out of charging stations. Edit reply: it's a few refills but each is quick and lasts longer than a battery charge. Would estimate 5 minutes for human needs every 3-6 hours is reasonable. I don't believe this is unusual long-distance driving behavior. And again, I don't think Tesla should be judged right now on their ability to cater to that market; we should be looking at how well Tesla serves those driving a couple hundred miles or several hundred miles in a more leisurely fashion.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        First, the only likely way to make that trip with only one stop for gas is to do it in a car getting better than 40mpg, so unless they're in a good hybrid and haven't loaded it down too much, I'm pretty sure they're going to get gas twice. Second, I don't know about you, but unless I'm dehydrated, I pee rather more often than once every six hours, and I definitely stop more often than that on the occasional ~800 mile road trip I take. Assuming this game of telephone hasn't gone too badly awry, your friends are extreme outliers, not "a typical person in the US used to driving distances".
- 300bps 13y ago
  Based on the mounds of recent research, taking a 30 minute break to walk around after 2 hours of sitting is recommended for your health: http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135575490/sitting-all-day-worse-for-you-than-you-might-think http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135575490/sitting-all-day-wors...
timdorr 13y ago
Elon has been hinting at faster-than-gas recharging rates for the past few weeks on Twitter. The Supercharger network upgrades are part 4 of a 5 part trilogy they've been running since April. It's widely rumored that part 5 will be battery swapping or something similar to enable ultra fast charging. My guess: Superchargers will remain free as promised and the battery swapping will offer faster charging, but at a cost.
- rurounijones 13y ago
  5 part trilogy? He been reading Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy?
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    Or watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    He's cited Douglas Adams as one of his favorite philosophers, so probably.
  - schiffern 13y ago
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/319119973366784002 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/319119973366784002
- pixie_ 13y ago
  If he gets the manufacturing costs down and the volume up, could the service possibly be cheaper than the typical $50 fill up? That would be a game changer.
  - Goopplesoft 13y ago
    Really? Right now it costs an average of about $7-8 bucks for a typical 230 mi range (about a tank). If the service costs anywhere near $50, it'd be disappointing. Cost reduction plays a huge (if not the biggest) consideration in going electric.
marssaxman 13y ago
2 hours drive followed by 30 minutes rest sounds a lot like a non-Iron Butt-level motorcycle touring pace.
sliverstorm 13y ago
How about switching out those batteries Batteries in most electric cars are squeezed in every possible location. It's not just a cube you can slide out the side of the car. If it was a cube, you'd either have to make the car really big or cut the range in half. Maybe they've found some way around it with the Tesla, but it isn't usually just that they don't like the idea of battery-swap stations.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  In the case of the Tesla, it actually is a cube, or at least a flat rectangular solid. They're not crammed in odd places. But the battery enclosure itself is integral to the frame, and the rest of the car is literally built around it. It's possible to remove the battery, but not trivial.
  - schiffern 13y ago
    The Model S was designed for swapping from the start. The flat battery is just bolted under the car between the wheels. Selling swap-capable EVs means Tesla gets 7 ZEV credits per car instead of 4.
mtgx 13y ago
You mean like the company that just went bankrupt? (Better Place)
chaz 13y ago
There was an interesting article in the WSJ that talks about "contingency anxiety," and explains why car manufacturers like Land Rover add ridiculous capabilities, like fording waters 35.4" inches deep, in their Range Rover. Car makers call it "contingency anxiety," the urge to buy a mechanically overqualified vehicle because maybe, once in a blue moon—or a hurricane on a high tide—the car buyer might need the extra functionality. I think this is tapping into the same psychology. I've seen people insist on buying AWD in the Bay Area "just in case" they go skiing to Lake Tahoe, but never do. The reality is that most Tesla owners will simply commute well within the regular range. Telsa is reducing the, "but how will we do the 4 hour drive to grandma's house for Thanksgiving" argument by providing an inconvenient -- but workable -- solution. They're betting that's enough to get a meaningful number of people over the hump. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324439804578105270554653446.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732443980457810...
- mansigandhi 13y ago
  Very interesting. thanks!
- grecy 13y ago
  I'm heavily involved in the Overlanding community, which is all about traveling around the world in your own vehicle[1] People constantly raise the question as to why people from the United States don't do this nearly as much as people from other countries. I've come to the conclusion that it's mostly related to this "contingency anxiety" you speak of. US citizens are so concerned about covering every possible situation they spend their time buying and building, but never actually go anywhere much. The few that do go have so much stuff their vehicles are huge and extremely heavy and they wind up having all manner of serious mechanical issues. I drove Alaska->Argentina[2] in a dead-stock Jeep TJ with little more than camping gear[3] and didn't have a single issue the entire 2 years. It's amazing how US Citizens will attack the "get out and go" approach by listing the 5000 things that could possibly go wrong. Before I left, I had people telling me (among other things) I'd die in an earthquake, get bitten by an exotic critter, catch H1-N1, get AIDS from a shoddy 3rd world blood transfusion, etc. etc. So much fear of the "what if" [1] Details on Overlanding http://wikioverland.org/Overland_Frequently_Asked_Questions http://wikioverland.org/Overland_Frequently_Asked_Questions [2] My blog http://theroadchoseme.com/ http://theroadchoseme.com/ [3] The gear I took http://theroadchoseme.com/on-the-road http://theroadchoseme.com/on-the-road
marvin 13y ago
Tesla is actually planning to explore battery swapping in the "near term". This is clear from an obscure line in their Q1 earnings announcement.
chiph 13y ago
Tesla needs to start talks with quick-serve restaurant chains (McDonalds, in particular) for setting up charging stations at their restaurants. I don't know what a Supercharger draws (30 amps?), but the restaurant probably has enough excess utility power to run 1 or 2 of them.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  They should be looking at installing charging stations everywhere there is commercial 3-phase power available, and charge other car maker's for access for their own EVs (like the LEAF).
  - chiph 13y ago
    The Tesla vehicles have their own connector design (they don't use the standard IEEE one). The best reason I can come up with for doing this is that the car communicates charging conditions to the station so it can regulate current flow, and the standard connector doesn't allow that. When you buy a Model S, you get about 3 different adapters so you can plug in somewhere other than their own charger. Will Tesla license this design to the other car makers? They may have offered to, but Nissan/GM/etc are probably thinking why pay Tesla when they get the IEEE design "for free".
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
      Mercedes and Toyota are already licensing the battery and drivetrain technology from Tesla, and I'm sure other manufacturers will fall into line soon. Why not license the charging technology at the same time?
- jared314 13y ago
  Don't forget large-chain grocery stores, movie theaters, and shopping malls. You spend at least 20 mins just buying one item in those places.
chris_mahan 13y ago
I'd wait 30 minutes to save $45. Currently a fill-up from 1/8th of a tank to full costs me $58. Waiting 30 minutes to get $45 worth of power is like making $90 per hour. Lots of people will be OK with that I think. People wait 30 minutes or more to get their car washed already... Ohhhhh... Charge up and Car Wash together! That would be awesome!

by pixie_ 13y ago

Waiting 30 minutes is still a dealbreaker for a lot of people. How about switching out those batteries like propane tanks. I'll let someone else figure out the technical details of that.

kiba 13y ago

You're going to complain about taking a 30 minutes break after a 2 hours drive? Also, if you charge your car every night, you should have enough range to drive to work.

pixie_ 13y ago
If you think having to take a 30 minute break after 2 hours of driving ISN'T a big deal then you are way out of touch.
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  I drive long distances very frequently (I live in a motorhome, spent most of four years travelling full-time, and currently now travel about 3-4 months out of the year). I recommend this kind of pace, regardless of whether you need to fill up or not. It makes for a happier journey, and a more fulfilling one. But, then again, gas stations aren't exactly where I want to stop for 30 minutes every two hours. My 30 minute stops are rest areas, local or state parks, interesting restaurants, lakes, monuments, etc. It's rare that I want to spend 30 minutes at a gas station. So, while I think stopping for 30 minutes every 2 hours isn't a big deal, and I don't think I'm way out of touch. But, since I wouldn't get to determine where I stop for 30 minutes ever 2 hours in the current Tesla scenario, it is a big deal. Presumably, and allegedly, this 30 minute problem will soon fade. I'm impressed that a cross-country trip will be possible this year. That's amazing progress; I'm blown away by Musk's vision and ability to deliver it.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  I've driven straight across the country (2700 miles per trip) several times in the past 5 years, and stopping 30 minutes every few hours is not a big deal. Unless you are into amphetamines or falling asleep at the wheel, it is the only way to do it for any extended amount of time.
  - waterlesscloud 13y ago
    "Unless you are into amphetamines or falling asleep at the wheel, it is the only way to do it for any extended amount of time." This is simply not a true statement. It may be your personal preference, but it is not at all universal.
    - rdl 13y ago
      I can do SF to Vegas without stopping (except for fuel, and in a diesel truck with extra tanks, without stopping). My preference is generally top stop and have a meal at Harris Ranch, too (which, conveniently, is where the supercharger is), or at In-N-Out in Bakersfield, but that's about it. SF to Seattle is the really hard one. SF to Portland is something I can do (without starting absurdly early, or maybe even after a full day of doing other stuff), but going all the way to Seattle is hard, and stopping in Portland seems silly (since it's only 3h more to Seattle). Unfortunately, everything between Redding/Weed and Portland seems to be Methland.
      - markvdb 13y ago
        Safely driving over 1300km (edit: SF to Seattle) without stopping is impossible. http://drowsydriving.org/about/facts-and-stats/ http://drowsydriving.org/about/facts-and-stats/ Please adjust your driving behavior.
        rdl 13y ago
        It's 636 miles to Portland. I've averaged in the 70mph range on that trip, since there are stretches of I-5 where much higher speeds are fairly safe (and the speed limit is 75 on a lot of it). 9h of concentration isn't that unreasonable, since you do need to stop for gas once (in Oregon, usually, which means it's slow). San Jose to Vegas is 523 miles, and doing that in 6-7 hours is quite feasible (although it's entirely possible for it to take 12-14 hours with traffic on I-5 and I-15 if things go wrong)
        Retric 13y ago
baddox 13y ago
Twenty percent of your road time spent not moving? Yes, I would complain about that. I don't think anyone who has taken any considerable road trip would find this strange.
- joshdance 13y ago
  Most car owners, including Tesla owners, don't take that many road trips. You drive in the range you charge it at night. If you do take a road trip, schedule the stop for dinner at the same time as the recharge.
  - atwebb 13y ago
    What if I'm driving from the mid-US to a coast? It's around 8-10 hours of just drive time.
  - baddox 13y ago
    The whole point of this transcontinental charge network, at least as it has been marketed, is for road trips. If you're driving across the country it's unlikely that you will want to stop for 30 minutes every 2 hours. I could see two or three 30 minute stops per day at the most.
1123581321 13y ago
A typical person in the US used to driving distances would have no trouble driving eight hours in a row stopping only for 1-2 gas breaks and one bathroom/food break. Edit: and two such people in a car could easily drive 12-24 hours alternating. For example, my friends drive between Texas and Illinois and expect to complete the trip in under 24 hours. It's okay that the Tesla isn't going after that market yet, but getting them to change their habits for the car is unlikely to happen. That's okay!
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > my friends drive between Texas and Illinois That could be anywhere from ~430 miles, in which case you can probably get there by starting with a full battery and making a single charge stop, to more than 1400 miles. Please be more specific as to the origin and destination.
  - 1123581321 13y ago
    I was thinking of a distance for which arriving in under 24 hours would be doable but not without frequent stops. To use a specific example, these people drive from Chicago to Kerrville which is about 19 hours according to Google Maps. Arriving in 24 hours would probably not be possible even if no time was wasted getting into and out of charging stations. Edit reply: it's a few refills but each is quick and lasts longer than a battery charge. Would estimate 5 minutes for human needs every 3-6 hours is reasonable. I don't believe this is unusual long-distance driving behavior. And again, I don't think Tesla should be judged right now on their ability to cater to that market; we should be looking at how well Tesla serves those driving a couple hundred miles or several hundred miles in a more leisurely fashion.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      First, the only likely way to make that trip with only one stop for gas is to do it in a car getting better than 40mpg, so unless they're in a good hybrid and haven't loaded it down too much, I'm pretty sure they're going to get gas twice. Second, I don't know about you, but unless I'm dehydrated, I pee rather more often than once every six hours, and I definitely stop more often than that on the occasional ~800 mile road trip I take. Assuming this game of telephone hasn't gone too badly awry, your friends are extreme outliers, not "a typical person in the US used to driving distances".
300bps 13y ago
Based on the mounds of recent research, taking a 30 minute break to walk around after 2 hours of sitting is recommended for your health: http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135575490/sitting-all-day-worse-for-you-than-you-might-think http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135575490/sitting-all-day-wors...

timdorr 13y ago

Elon has been hinting at faster-than-gas recharging rates for the past few weeks on Twitter. The Supercharger network upgrades are part 4 of a 5 part trilogy they've been running since April. It's widely rumored that part 5 will be battery swapping or something similar to enable ultra fast charging. My guess: Superchargers will remain free as promised and the battery swapping will offer faster charging, but at a cost.

rurounijones 13y ago
5 part trilogy? He been reading Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy?
- stcredzero 13y ago
  Or watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
- vidarh 13y ago
  He's cited Douglas Adams as one of his favorite philosophers, so probably.
- schiffern 13y ago
  https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/319119973366784002 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/319119973366784002
pixie_ 13y ago
If he gets the manufacturing costs down and the volume up, could the service possibly be cheaper than the typical $50 fill up? That would be a game changer.
- Goopplesoft 13y ago
  Really? Right now it costs an average of about $7-8 bucks for a typical 230 mi range (about a tank). If the service costs anywhere near $50, it'd be disappointing. Cost reduction plays a huge (if not the biggest) consideration in going electric.

marssaxman 13y ago

2 hours drive followed by 30 minutes rest sounds a lot like a non-Iron Butt-level motorcycle touring pace.

sliverstorm 13y ago

How about switching out those batteries Batteries in most electric cars are squeezed in every possible location. It's not just a cube you can slide out the side of the car. If it was a cube, you'd either have to make the car really big or cut the range in half. Maybe they've found some way around it with the Tesla, but it isn't usually just that they don't like the idea of battery-swap stations.

dredmorbius 13y ago
In the case of the Tesla, it actually is a cube, or at least a flat rectangular solid. They're not crammed in odd places. But the battery enclosure itself is integral to the frame, and the rest of the car is literally built around it. It's possible to remove the battery, but not trivial.
- schiffern 13y ago
  The Model S was designed for swapping from the start. The flat battery is just bolted under the car between the wheels. Selling swap-capable EVs means Tesla gets 7 ZEV credits per car instead of 4.

mtgx 13y ago

You mean like the company that just went bankrupt? (Better Place)

chaz 13y ago

There was an interesting article in the WSJ that talks about "contingency anxiety," and explains why car manufacturers like Land Rover add ridiculous capabilities, like fording waters 35.4" inches deep, in their Range Rover. Car makers call it "contingency anxiety," the urge to buy a mechanically overqualified vehicle because maybe, once in a blue moon—or a hurricane on a high tide—the car buyer might need the extra functionality. I think this is tapping into the same psychology. I've seen people insist on buying AWD in the Bay Area "just in case" they go skiing to Lake Tahoe, but never do. The reality is that most Tesla owners will simply commute well within the regular range. Telsa is reducing the, "but how will we do the 4 hour drive to grandma's house for Thanksgiving" argument by providing an inconvenient -- but workable -- solution. They're betting that's enough to get a meaningful number of people over the hump. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324439804578105270554653446.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732443980457810...

mansigandhi 13y ago
Very interesting. thanks!
grecy 13y ago
I'm heavily involved in the Overlanding community, which is all about traveling around the world in your own vehicle[1] People constantly raise the question as to why people from the United States don't do this nearly as much as people from other countries. I've come to the conclusion that it's mostly related to this "contingency anxiety" you speak of. US citizens are so concerned about covering every possible situation they spend their time buying and building, but never actually go anywhere much. The few that do go have so much stuff their vehicles are huge and extremely heavy and they wind up having all manner of serious mechanical issues. I drove Alaska->Argentina[2] in a dead-stock Jeep TJ with little more than camping gear[3] and didn't have a single issue the entire 2 years. It's amazing how US Citizens will attack the "get out and go" approach by listing the 5000 things that could possibly go wrong. Before I left, I had people telling me (among other things) I'd die in an earthquake, get bitten by an exotic critter, catch H1-N1, get AIDS from a shoddy 3rd world blood transfusion, etc. etc. So much fear of the "what if" [1] Details on Overlanding http://wikioverland.org/Overland_Frequently_Asked_Questions http://wikioverland.org/Overland_Frequently_Asked_Questions [2] My blog http://theroadchoseme.com/ http://theroadchoseme.com/ [3] The gear I took http://theroadchoseme.com/on-the-road http://theroadchoseme.com/on-the-road

marvin 13y ago

Tesla is actually planning to explore battery swapping in the "near term". This is clear from an obscure line in their Q1 earnings announcement.

chiph 13y ago

Tesla needs to start talks with quick-serve restaurant chains (McDonalds, in particular) for setting up charging stations at their restaurants. I don't know what a Supercharger draws (30 amps?), but the restaurant probably has enough excess utility power to run 1 or 2 of them.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
They should be looking at installing charging stations everywhere there is commercial 3-phase power available, and charge other car maker's for access for their own EVs (like the LEAF).
- chiph 13y ago
  The Tesla vehicles have their own connector design (they don't use the standard IEEE one). The best reason I can come up with for doing this is that the car communicates charging conditions to the station so it can regulate current flow, and the standard connector doesn't allow that. When you buy a Model S, you get about 3 different adapters so you can plug in somewhere other than their own charger. Will Tesla license this design to the other car makers? They may have offered to, but Nissan/GM/etc are probably thinking why pay Tesla when they get the IEEE design "for free".
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    Mercedes and Toyota are already licensing the battery and drivetrain technology from Tesla, and I'm sure other manufacturers will fall into line soon. Why not license the charging technology at the same time?
jared314 13y ago
Don't forget large-chain grocery stores, movie theaters, and shopping malls. You spend at least 20 mins just buying one item in those places.

chris_mahan 13y ago

I'd wait 30 minutes to save $45. Currently a fill-up from 1/8th of a tank to full costs me $58. Waiting 30 minutes to get $45 worth of power is like making $90 per hour. Lots of people will be OK with that I think. People wait 30 minutes or more to get their car washed already... Ohhhhh... Charge up and Car Wash together! That would be awesome!