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The thing is, a lot of apps can't work without push, or work a lot worse without push, and I think users aren't well equipped to decide in a few seconds. I thi

The thing is, a lot of apps can't work without push, or work a lot worse without push, and I think users aren't well equipped to decide in a few seconds. I think you can always find a case for more granular control. Say, if iOS enabled you to control the camera access or the microphone access for each app, we could find some class of users which might benefit from it. The question is, at what price?

krichman 13y ago
False analogy. The camera and microphone aren't readily available to non-running apps, whereas push notifications are. Push notifications can also interrupt other running applications. Allowing them globally is a far greater burden on users than asking once when the app opens the first time. If your app cannot work without push it needs to fail gracefully, end of story.
- davidkatz 13y ago
  I don't think it's a false analogy. I didn't not try to argue that the burden is equal, just that granular control can always come with benefits. For some apps, "failing gracefully" means not delivering a large part of the app's value, and that's a shame. I believe that there are better ways to solve this problem, and that educating users to delete apps, and thereby educating developers to be conservative with their notifications is part of the solution.
  - rangibaby 13y ago
    The problem is, "value" is defined differently by the app maker and myself. "You got some coins!" at 4am isn't valuable to me.
  - krichman 13y ago
    One man's "not delivering a large part of the app's value" is another's "not pestering me outside of the hour in the evening I want to use it". Anecdotally, there is not one single app that I have which I would like to give me push notifications, although a few I use daily would like to. You would force me and others like me to delete them? I'd switch to Android immediately. There's already a solution for the problem. It's to inform users that your app has more functionality with push notifications on. Not asking Apple to impose policy on their users that restricts their already limited freedom with the device. What we are discussing is a UI failure on your part, not an iOS failure. "Educating developers to be conservative" is not going to happen. You're thinking of your own app delivering value but forgetting sociopathic actors like Path who feel free to send your entire contacts list to themselves.
soemarko 13y ago
> The thing is, a lot of apps can't work without push, or work a lot worse without push, and I think users aren't well equipped to decide in a few seconds. Umm, No. For me, it's an easy choice. If it's productivity app, push please. If it's a game, nope. I couldn't care less if my friend need me to visit her farm in the middle of the day, while I might enjoy the game when I'm in the john. I even wish the local notification follow the push notification rules.
- davidkatz 13y ago
  I think you're making generalised, quick calls because you've been burned by spam, which I get. Doesn't mean there aren't a ton of apps out there that would provide value with notifications but are hard to assess.
  - jvzr 13y ago
    Do you have an example of such app? We keep coming up with examples of bad push notifications, yet cannot come up with examples of good ones. Genuinely curious.
    - davidkatz 13y ago
      Sure. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I want to send users a "your order has shipped" notification, when an order they paid for shipped.
      - jvzr 13y ago
        Seems like a legitimate use then. How have you gathered stats to let you think that your users are vastly refusing push notifications for you to request it in iOS 7?
        davidkatz 13y ago
        I use MixPanel to track permissions conversions, and they're at roughly 60%. So 40% of users assume they're going to get spammed, even though they're not.

krichman 13y ago

False analogy. The camera and microphone aren't readily available to non-running apps, whereas push notifications are. Push notifications can also interrupt other running applications. Allowing them globally is a far greater burden on users than asking once when the app opens the first time. If your app cannot work without push it needs to fail gracefully, end of story.

davidkatz 13y ago
I don't think it's a false analogy. I didn't not try to argue that the burden is equal, just that granular control can always come with benefits. For some apps, "failing gracefully" means not delivering a large part of the app's value, and that's a shame. I believe that there are better ways to solve this problem, and that educating users to delete apps, and thereby educating developers to be conservative with their notifications is part of the solution.
- rangibaby 13y ago
  The problem is, "value" is defined differently by the app maker and myself. "You got some coins!" at 4am isn't valuable to me.
- krichman 13y ago
  One man's "not delivering a large part of the app's value" is another's "not pestering me outside of the hour in the evening I want to use it". Anecdotally, there is not one single app that I have which I would like to give me push notifications, although a few I use daily would like to. You would force me and others like me to delete them? I'd switch to Android immediately. There's already a solution for the problem. It's to inform users that your app has more functionality with push notifications on. Not asking Apple to impose policy on their users that restricts their already limited freedom with the device. What we are discussing is a UI failure on your part, not an iOS failure. "Educating developers to be conservative" is not going to happen. You're thinking of your own app delivering value but forgetting sociopathic actors like Path who feel free to send your entire contacts list to themselves.

soemarko 13y ago

> The thing is, a lot of apps can't work without push, or work a lot worse without push, and I think users aren't well equipped to decide in a few seconds. Umm, No. For me, it's an easy choice. If it's productivity app, push please. If it's a game, nope. I couldn't care less if my friend need me to visit her farm in the middle of the day, while I might enjoy the game when I'm in the john. I even wish the local notification follow the push notification rules.

davidkatz 13y ago
I think you're making generalised, quick calls because you've been burned by spam, which I get. Doesn't mean there aren't a ton of apps out there that would provide value with notifications but are hard to assess.
- jvzr 13y ago
  Do you have an example of such app? We keep coming up with examples of bad push notifications, yet cannot come up with examples of good ones. Genuinely curious.
  - davidkatz 13y ago
    Sure. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I want to send users a "your order has shipped" notification, when an order they paid for shipped.
    - jvzr 13y ago
      Seems like a legitimate use then. How have you gathered stats to let you think that your users are vastly refusing push notifications for you to request it in iOS 7?
      - davidkatz 13y ago
        I use MixPanel to track permissions conversions, and they're at roughly 60%. So 40% of users assume they're going to get spammed, even though they're not.