4 ms·

I've been a junior developer for almost 2 years now at a fairly large company. At my current position, there hasn't been a single task thrown at me that I have

by norrec 13y ago

I've been a junior developer for almost 2 years now at a fairly large company. At my current position, there hasn't been a single task thrown at me that I have not been able to complete with ease. I've worked with multiple languages and technologies that I was not familiar with at all when I started. I tend to figure them out pretty quickly and get on with the task at hand. I've built a bunch of side projects (not all of them completed) and have put them on Github per this article's suggestion. Having said that, I get paid very little and am generally bored with the work I'm doing now so I'm looking for a new opportunity. I do very well on phone interviews but I'm absolutely terrible at onsite interviews that involve any white board algorithm problems, algorithm optimization questions, etc. This is a combination of low self esteem/intimidation I feel during these interviews. I've done maybe 3 or 4 of these and they've all gone terribly. It's come to the point where I have stopped applying for positions that interest me and that I feel that I would be a great fit for because I know the style of interview that I'll be facing. I've determined that I either need to come up with an idea of my own that I can turn into a steady income or that I need to leave this field and find something else to do. What do you guys think? Am I just a terrible developer or is it just a matter of practice? Like someone else mentioned above, I try to sit down and practice but get distracted by the fact that I could be building something interesting.

justinhj 13y ago
The fact that you're easily doing your tasks and looking for more challenge (and the reward that comes with it) suggests you are a good developer. What is it about phone vs on-site interviews that makes you do less well? I would try to think about why and ways you can mitigate that. For example if you think it's just talking in front of people, then get out of your comfort zone and give a talk at a local meetup or similar. Another thing to thing about is to present yourself honestly to the hiring manager as you are here... tell them that your work on github and your phone interview will be better than what you can do in-person. The important thing is to show them that you can do the job somehow.
danenania 13y ago
It seems like you just need to decide what you really want. If you really want one of those jobs, then just buckle down and jump through the hoops. It won't take all that long to memorize the stuff. On the other hand, maybe your resistance to the hoops is a warning sign that you should pay attention to if you don't want to end up bored again. Hiring processes like these will tend to select the people who prefer homework problems and tests to actually building things, which might be unlikely to create the kind of environment you'll be happy in. Have you tried going to meetups and doing some networking? Getting to know people outside of the official channels seems to be a way to short circuit some of this nonsense.
nitrogen 13y ago
I have some ideas that would help address this problem and improve hiring in general. I might take a stab at it eventually, if I'm ever no longer running my current venture.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
VLM 13y ago
"I've determined that I either need to come up with an idea of my own that I can turn into a steady income or that I need to leave this field and find something else to do." What about consultant / project / contract work? Generally "the hiring process" treats candidates for full time employment relatively poorly and unprofessionally, but treats consultant / contractor types more professionally. Think about other professions. If you're hiring a plumber's apprentice, its funny to ask them if they know which end of a plunger to hold, and watch then squirm under the pressure. But if you talk to a real genuine licensed and bonded independent master plumber and ask him to demonstrate unclogging a drain before you'll offer a remodeling contract, he'll probably tell you to F off and walk away to a more professional job. You can treat employees like dirt, but not contractors.
- brightsize 13y ago
  Great example. I've thought of this many times myself -- how no customer would ever treat a trade contractor in the way that companies treat candidates. My electrician is not going to spend his valuable time letting me grill him on questions about electrical power generation and distribution, RF engineering, or even Ohm's law for that matter. When I think of it, I'm hiring him because 1) he's not a n00b, he's a journeyman, 2) he's been around - has some staying power, and thus has most likely done satisfactory work, 3) the BBB is happy with him, he must not have done any awful work, and 4) if he's on Angie's List at all, most of the people there are happy with his work. If I were to try to cop the attitude of "I'm thinking of hiring you, but you're going to get a good, humiliating hazing first" I'd fully expect to be told to F-off and I'd deserve it too.
clebio 13y ago
You don't mention how you're finding jobs, but my main advice would be to get referred to jobs. Let everyone you work with, and which you share a mutual respect with, know that you're looking -- seed your network. Also go to meetups and any sort of external events you can (user-groups for software products, etc). Because, as others mention, being referred helps immensely. Also as others mention, confidence in the interview is something you can develop. Practice. Practice speaking, practice the white-boarding (somehow... maybe record yourself at home with video and watch it), or use the public forums (the meetups). I've taken to recording myself reading the Harvard Sentences, to hear how I sound. Whatever works for you. Finally, it's just a numbers game, the long game.... It. Takes. Time. The whole process always takes longer than I expect. Keep searching, try to not get emotionally attached to it, because it's such a roller-coaster ride ('I had five rounds of interviews, we had good rapport! .... [two weeks later, after silence: no-go decision]), and lay low in your current job because a paycheck is nice to have in the meanwhile.
lutorm 13y ago
This is one unexpected way in which I think my academic background has served me well: We give presentations and take questions about our work all the time, or have whiteboard discussions with colleagues about how things work. We also giving practice talks before giving important ones, with a friendly audience taking notes, asking questions, and giving you feedback on what was good and what was not. If white board algorithm problems terrify you, the only thing that will help is practice. Take the opportunity to try to discuss different solutions with colleagues at work. Or, if you can't do it at work, try to get a couple of friends together and just take turns presenting and asking questions. Yeah, you won't get the adversarial atmosphere that way, but you will get used to the setting.
brightsize 13y ago
I sympathize 100%, I feel much the same as you do. I have decades of experience, doing real work, creating systems, making products. Back In The Day, these kinds of quiz-cage interviews simply did not exist, and, having sat on both sides of the interview table a great many times, I can confidently say that they don't need to exist. I would no more ask a candidate to implement a quicksort than I would ask a candidate for a trumpet chair in my orchestra to recite to me the frequency of every note in the F major scale or demonstrate how to weld a new bell onto this extremely broken horn that I just happen to have with me. The whiteboard stuff you describe is -nothing- more than hazing, as you, I think, have instinctively surmised. At this point I don't bother to apply to corporate jobs, or even to jobs at startups that are larger than a few people, because I know I'll get the same kind of idiotic hazing each and every time. I'll found my own company (there have never been more opportunities than now) or do freelancing for companies that will treat me with respect. In your case, since you sound like you're sharp, I think that freelancing might be a good choice in the short term. You can bring in some bacon while you work on product ideas, do some networking, and find partners. You sound like a good developer and the problems that you have with these interviews (which I share) are no reflection on that fact. This may sound a bit odd -- but do keep an open mind about leaving the field. There's a lot of interesting work out there in the world, some of it creative even. Software geeks tend to live in this very narrow, ant-farm-like world, have a hard time seeing outside of its walls, and assume that beyond the glass is a land that can only offer just drudgery and pain, which is simply not true. Best of luck.

by norrec 13y ago

justinhj 13y ago

The fact that you're easily doing your tasks and looking for more challenge (and the reward that comes with it) suggests you are a good developer. What is it about phone vs on-site interviews that makes you do less well? I would try to think about why and ways you can mitigate that. For example if you think it's just talking in front of people, then get out of your comfort zone and give a talk at a local meetup or similar. Another thing to thing about is to present yourself honestly to the hiring manager as you are here... tell them that your work on github and your phone interview will be better than what you can do in-person. The important thing is to show them that you can do the job somehow.

danenania 13y ago

It seems like you just need to decide what you really want. If you really want one of those jobs, then just buckle down and jump through the hoops. It won't take all that long to memorize the stuff. On the other hand, maybe your resistance to the hoops is a warning sign that you should pay attention to if you don't want to end up bored again. Hiring processes like these will tend to select the people who prefer homework problems and tests to actually building things, which might be unlikely to create the kind of environment you'll be happy in. Have you tried going to meetups and doing some networking? Getting to know people outside of the official channels seems to be a way to short circuit some of this nonsense.

nitrogen 13y ago

I have some ideas that would help address this problem and improve hiring in general. I might take a stab at it eventually, if I'm ever no longer running my current venture.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

VLM 13y ago

"I've determined that I either need to come up with an idea of my own that I can turn into a steady income or that I need to leave this field and find something else to do." What about consultant / project / contract work? Generally "the hiring process" treats candidates for full time employment relatively poorly and unprofessionally, but treats consultant / contractor types more professionally. Think about other professions. If you're hiring a plumber's apprentice, its funny to ask them if they know which end of a plunger to hold, and watch then squirm under the pressure. But if you talk to a real genuine licensed and bonded independent master plumber and ask him to demonstrate unclogging a drain before you'll offer a remodeling contract, he'll probably tell you to F off and walk away to a more professional job. You can treat employees like dirt, but not contractors.

brightsize 13y ago
Great example. I've thought of this many times myself -- how no customer would ever treat a trade contractor in the way that companies treat candidates. My electrician is not going to spend his valuable time letting me grill him on questions about electrical power generation and distribution, RF engineering, or even Ohm's law for that matter. When I think of it, I'm hiring him because 1) he's not a n00b, he's a journeyman, 2) he's been around - has some staying power, and thus has most likely done satisfactory work, 3) the BBB is happy with him, he must not have done any awful work, and 4) if he's on Angie's List at all, most of the people there are happy with his work. If I were to try to cop the attitude of "I'm thinking of hiring you, but you're going to get a good, humiliating hazing first" I'd fully expect to be told to F-off and I'd deserve it too.

clebio 13y ago

You don't mention how you're finding jobs, but my main advice would be to get referred to jobs. Let everyone you work with, and which you share a mutual respect with, know that you're looking -- seed your network. Also go to meetups and any sort of external events you can (user-groups for software products, etc). Because, as others mention, being referred helps immensely. Also as others mention, confidence in the interview is something you can develop. Practice. Practice speaking, practice the white-boarding (somehow... maybe record yourself at home with video and watch it), or use the public forums (the meetups). I've taken to recording myself reading the Harvard Sentences, to hear how I sound. Whatever works for you. Finally, it's just a numbers game, the long game.... It. Takes. Time. The whole process always takes longer than I expect. Keep searching, try to not get emotionally attached to it, because it's such a roller-coaster ride ('I had five rounds of interviews, we had good rapport! .... [two weeks later, after silence: no-go decision]), and lay low in your current job because a paycheck is nice to have in the meanwhile.

lutorm 13y ago

This is one unexpected way in which I think my academic background has served me well: We give presentations and take questions about our work all the time, or have whiteboard discussions with colleagues about how things work. We also giving practice talks before giving important ones, with a friendly audience taking notes, asking questions, and giving you feedback on what was good and what was not. If white board algorithm problems terrify you, the only thing that will help is practice. Take the opportunity to try to discuss different solutions with colleagues at work. Or, if you can't do it at work, try to get a couple of friends together and just take turns presenting and asking questions. Yeah, you won't get the adversarial atmosphere that way, but you will get used to the setting.

brightsize 13y ago

I sympathize 100%, I feel much the same as you do. I have decades of experience, doing real work, creating systems, making products. Back In The Day, these kinds of quiz-cage interviews simply did not exist, and, having sat on both sides of the interview table a great many times, I can confidently say that they don't need to exist. I would no more ask a candidate to implement a quicksort than I would ask a candidate for a trumpet chair in my orchestra to recite to me the frequency of every note in the F major scale or demonstrate how to weld a new bell onto this extremely broken horn that I just happen to have with me. The whiteboard stuff you describe is -nothing- more than hazing, as you, I think, have instinctively surmised. At this point I don't bother to apply to corporate jobs, or even to jobs at startups that are larger than a few people, because I know I'll get the same kind of idiotic hazing each and every time. I'll found my own company (there have never been more opportunities than now) or do freelancing for companies that will treat me with respect. In your case, since you sound like you're sharp, I think that freelancing might be a good choice in the short term. You can bring in some bacon while you work on product ideas, do some networking, and find partners. You sound like a good developer and the problems that you have with these interviews (which I share) are no reflection on that fact. This may sound a bit odd -- but do keep an open mind about leaving the field. There's a lot of interesting work out there in the world, some of it creative even. Software geeks tend to live in this very narrow, ant-farm-like world, have a hard time seeing outside of its walls, and assume that beyond the glass is a land that can only offer just drudgery and pain, which is simply not true. Best of luck.