5 ms·

So, this attracts the ire of the state department. Yet, something like this (http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/TACMHL15 http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/TACMHL15)

So, this attracts the ire of the state department. Yet, something like this (http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/TACMHL15 http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/TACMHL15) is actually approved by the ATF as not being a firearm. You just need some basic machining skills (thanks MIT OpenCourseWare) and access to basic tools (thanks local hackerspace) to have a fully operational AR-15 which does not need to be registered. Seriously?

msandford 13y ago
Why should the law make sense? It's a bunch of arbitrary rules put in place via largely reactionary pressure. If you don't refactor code occasionally you end up with weird corner cases that don't make any sense. The laws of our nation haven't been refactored in any substantial way, ever. It's patches all the way down to the Constitution.
- mbillie1 13y ago
  Half-baked, untested production patches at that.
- ahallock 13y ago
  Exactly. And that's the point and design. With a convoluted system in place, seemingly peaceful activities can land you in prison, or bankrupt you with legal fees. I only see the entropy accelerating.
  - msandford 13y ago
    Yep and it'll destroy the American empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Social_complexity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Social_complexit...
malexw 13y ago
"You just need some basic machining skills (thanks MIT OpenCourseWare)" I wish I could learn this kind of stuff from OCW. There's some text descriptions of how lathes and milling machine work in one of their courses (http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-670-mechanical-engineering-tools-january-iap-2004/ http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-670-mech...), but not enough to make me comfortable with either tool. I've been looking for a place around my city (Toronto) where I could take a weekend or evening classes about machining skills, but haven't had much luck. So, I think you're underestimating the difficultly of getting basic machining skills in our post-industrial society. Though I agree with your main point.
- patrickyeon 13y ago
  Here's a start from MIT: http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos
oostevo 13y ago
I'm nothing close to a lawyer, but I bet the people you linked to would indeed get in trouble if they started shipping their parts overseas. The law (ITAR[1] and the Arms Control Export Act[2]) wasn't designed to keep home-milled ArmaLite parts out of the hands of US citizens. The goal was to prevent someone like Lockheed from doing something like selling stealth fighters to an adversary without checking in with someone first. It's basically written as banning the export of military technology to foreign countries without the proper paperwork. Apparently, to the folks at the State Department, stuff like PGP[3] and plans for a 3D-printable gun count as "military technology" and putting it on the internet counts as "export". That's pretty different from the ATF deciding that a lower receiver without holes in it doesn't need a firearms dealer for a transfer. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_R... [3] http://stason.org/TULARC/security/pgp/99-Appendix-VI-A-Statement-from-ViaCrypt-Concerning-ITAR.html http://stason.org/TULARC/security/pgp/99-Appendix-VI-A-State...
- warmwaffles 13y ago
  I'm interested on the PGP stuff with Zimmerman. If I encrypt a file using PGP and send it to a friend in Europe, would this act be in violation of ITAR or AECA? If it is a violation, then how has HTTPS not been challenged?
  - cdjk 13y ago
    There's no problem sending encrypted data internationally. The "munition" is the code/program that does the encryption. Export controls on crypto were relaxed in the late 90s (I'd have to look up the exact dates), and before then there were "export" versions of Netscape Navigator that only supported 40 bit keys.
- iterion1 13y ago
  True, but 3D plans for the AR-15 are also easy to find online. Which, I suppose, is a point I should have included.

msandford 13y ago

Why should the law make sense? It's a bunch of arbitrary rules put in place via largely reactionary pressure. If you don't refactor code occasionally you end up with weird corner cases that don't make any sense. The laws of our nation haven't been refactored in any substantial way, ever. It's patches all the way down to the Constitution.

mbillie1 13y ago
Half-baked, untested production patches at that.
ahallock 13y ago
Exactly. And that's the point and design. With a convoluted system in place, seemingly peaceful activities can land you in prison, or bankrupt you with legal fees. I only see the entropy accelerating.
- msandford 13y ago
  Yep and it'll destroy the American empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Social_complexity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Social_complexit...

malexw 13y ago

"You just need some basic machining skills (thanks MIT OpenCourseWare)" I wish I could learn this kind of stuff from OCW. There's some text descriptions of how lathes and milling machine work in one of their courses (http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-670-mechanical-engineering-tools-january-iap-2004/ http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-670-mech...), but not enough to make me comfortable with either tool. I've been looking for a place around my city (Toronto) where I could take a weekend or evening classes about machining skills, but haven't had much luck. So, I think you're underestimating the difficultly of getting basic machining skills in our post-industrial society. Though I agree with your main point.

patrickyeon 13y ago
Here's a start from MIT: http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos

oostevo 13y ago

I'm nothing close to a lawyer, but I bet the people you linked to would indeed get in trouble if they started shipping their parts overseas. The law (ITAR[1] and the Arms Control Export Act[2]) wasn't designed to keep home-milled ArmaLite parts out of the hands of US citizens. The goal was to prevent someone like Lockheed from doing something like selling stealth fighters to an adversary without checking in with someone first. It's basically written as banning the export of military technology to foreign countries without the proper paperwork. Apparently, to the folks at the State Department, stuff like PGP[3] and plans for a 3D-printable gun count as "military technology" and putting it on the internet counts as "export". That's pretty different from the ATF deciding that a lower receiver without holes in it doesn't need a firearms dealer for a transfer. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_R... [3] http://stason.org/TULARC/security/pgp/99-Appendix-VI-A-Statement-from-ViaCrypt-Concerning-ITAR.html http://stason.org/TULARC/security/pgp/99-Appendix-VI-A-State...

warmwaffles 13y ago
I'm interested on the PGP stuff with Zimmerman. If I encrypt a file using PGP and send it to a friend in Europe, would this act be in violation of ITAR or AECA? If it is a violation, then how has HTTPS not been challenged?
- cdjk 13y ago
  There's no problem sending encrypted data internationally. The "munition" is the code/program that does the encryption. Export controls on crypto were relaxed in the late 90s (I'd have to look up the exact dates), and before then there were "export" versions of Netscape Navigator that only supported 40 bit keys.
iterion1 13y ago
True, but 3D plans for the AR-15 are also easy to find online. Which, I suppose, is a point I should have included.