8 ms·

Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

54 points by thestranger 13y ago

rdl 13y ago
Everyone should work overseas for a while, even if it's just in other first world countries, I think. Not because you have better opportunities, necessarily (for a certain class of tech startup, Silicon Valley is still the best place...), but for learning about other cultures, etc.
resu 13y ago
Other than teaching English abroad, how else can recent grads find work abroad? The article really drops the ball on that one and the meager links provided are useless. I spent nearly two years abroad in undergrad interning abroad, but even then, finding a relevant (not teaching English) full time job in Asia or Europe when you're in North America is extremely hard.
- newbie12 13y ago
  Yep, I've worked in China and the only way to get to live abroad on a fat expat stipend is to have your existing US or European employer rotate you there. If you try to get a job through local channels you'll be getting a crappy local salary. Do not try to work overseas right out of school-- you are far better off getting solid industry experience and then trying to make the jump. Working abroad is a career-killer too, most of these operations are corporate backwaters.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    This isn't true. I'm a LHF (local hired foreigner) in China, and my pay is decent enough. The lack of a package isn't bad if you don't have kids. I also work for a big American corp (but not as an expat), so my prospects are pretty good when I decide to go back. Not exactly a career killer, even if not working at home headquarters always has a disadvantage associated with it.
    - newbie12 13y ago
      Yeah but you obviously have a doctorate and commensurate experience to get hired. With respect to local hiring, I'm sure making less than what you'd earn in Seattle or San Jose is ok, but it isn't the high life that the OP was talking about.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        The high life is a myth, but I'm not starving. The fact that I can take a taxi to work everyday and not own a car has some savings also. It would be really hard to get hired out of college into a tech job overseas. But with 3-4 years experience in San Jose, you could transfer to Beijing fairly easily, though as a LHF, not an expat. To get an expat package, you need to be a big shot.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  I found a good extremely appropriate post doc in Switzerland, which was completely serendipitous. After I was done in Switzerland, I emailed some manager at Microsoft China out of the blue, and have been in Beijing ever since. If you have specialized skills, you should be able to find demand for them anywhere. You probably can't start a career here with nothing special in your resume, but you can work for a big corp (e.g. Microsoft) and eventually get transferred to one of their overseas R&D offices. They generally value experience, which might not be something they can get locally.
  - w1ntermute 13y ago
    How do you feel about destroying your lungs by living in Beijing? A friend of mine was so happy to leave after just half a year there.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Winters suck. All the other seasons are bearable.
- pwim 13y ago
  I got a job as a developer in Japan right after I graduated from University. I wrote about my experience here: http://www.tokyodev.com/2011/08/19/finding-a-job-as-a-ruby-developer-in-japan/ http://www.tokyodev.com/2011/08/19/finding-a-job-as-a-ruby-d... Having an in demand skillset (like being a developer) opens up a lot of possibilities.
  - resu 13y ago
    Interesting read, thanks for sharing! I spent two summers in Tokyo in an investment bank, although I was too focused on having as much fun as possible to find what non-finance opportunities were available. Also, the prospect of working actual Japanese hours were not very exciting. How was the work-life balance at Ubit? How is the market in Japan for (foreign) developers? If a recent grad were to follow your footsteps, how difficult would it be to find a decent and relevant job now, compared to 2006?
    - pwim 13y ago
      Even though I worked at a Japanese company, I didn't work Japanese hours. 10am-7pm were my typical hours. Good developers are in demand everywhere! If you're a developer who has some side-project / open source contribution you can show off, I think finding a job isn't too tough. I can't really comment on now vs 2006. I had no network back then, so that job was literally the only interesting looking one I could find. Now, I know of lots of good companies.
- bane 13y ago
  In the U.S., a couple options: Join the military - we have bases all over the world and chances are you might end up assigned to one. Join a Federal Agency that does overseas work - State, Intelligence Community, etc. Join a megacorp with a substantial overseas presence, apply only for jobs that are in countries you want to live in. They'll handle all the work visa nonsense. The good news is that for most of these, there's lots of bonus pay/subsidized housing involved. Working overseas you can save unbelievable amounts of money.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
I think the math is a bit wrong. Your money actually doesn't go much farther in Beijing, Bangkok, New Delhi, Kuala Lumpur, etc... Some things might be cheaper (eating out) but many things will be more expensive (cars, iPads, decent clothes). You might be able to hire a driver for 2 or 3000 RMB a month in China, but you still have to buy the car for $4-50,000. At best, its basically a wash, and if you are American, you'll realize how much cheaper most things are back home. Also, how much do you value clean air and decent schooling for your kids? I've been out for 7 years now, and I don't regret it. But its not an easy win life style wise.
- yen223 13y ago
  Don't forget the worse part: salaries are much much lower in third-world nations - at least here in Malaysia - especially after considering currency conversion. To put this into perspective: median annual salary for software engineers in Malaysia is about RM45,000, which is $15,000 a year. A 'highly-paid' consultant might make about RM150,000 a year - all of $50,000 per annum.
  - greg5green 13y ago
    Don't forget that Americans working overseas still have to pay the IRS!
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      We get a $90K blanket exemption + we can directly deduct whatever we pay for taxes in the country we are working in. So it usually works out to $0 + the expense of filing a tax form. Disclaimer: I am not a tax attorney and this shouldn't be taken as advice.
  - sneak 13y ago
    So have US customers (who pay near-US rates) and outsource all your work to skilled local contractors. Added bonus: it scales way beyond your normal 168/hour week cap.
rayiner 13y ago
I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week). Some American was talking about the investment opportunities in China, and the cultural differences between the countries. He came to free speech, and he basically said: "in the U.S. we can say whatever we want, but in China they think that's silly!" I.e. apologizing for the repressive Chinese communist government just because there is a buck to be made there now. My opinion of such people couldn't be lower. The fact is that India and Asia are not pleasant places outside the little bubbles westerners and the local rich people build for themselves. You want to go live in New Delhi? Be my guest: http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi05.jpg http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi05.jp..., http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi08.jpg http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi08.jp.... I'll be chilling here in America, where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries. EDIT: I'm not advocating being ignorant of the world. People should travel, and people should learn what there is to learn from other countries. But I consider it a problem if young Americans have to go abroad because there are no opportunities at home. That's a failure of our social system, and a threat to our communities and our institutions. My father didn't leave Bangladesh just so my daughter would have to go back.
- stormen 13y ago
  You're incredibly ignorant. You should leave the US; not because the rest of the world is necessarily better (yet some parts undoubtedly - in general - are), but because it gives you a broader perspective on your own life and situation. Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    I was born in Bangkok, Thailand, lived in Bangladesh for several years, and have traveled fairly extensively in Asia and Europe as a child/young teenager.
mathattack 13y ago
#4 - Becoming a global citizen is the most important reason. It's good for cultural and personal reasons. If you can solve a problem in another language and culture, you have so much more strength coming home.
HunterV 13y ago
As someone who grew up living all around the world I have this to say: Watch the move "Lost in Translation" If you can deal with forever being isolated, even with friends, then by all means live overseas. You will always be an outsider, no matter how acclimated you become. If you're ok with that, then you'll be fine. Otherwise, stick to America, it really is an awesome country to live in.
- doktrin 13y ago
  Ugh. Really? I truly don't get the hype about that movie. They definitely got the visuals right, but a lot of it felt "off". Quite a few of the cultural stereotypes were awkwardly over-played too. Also, Japan is really a different bird when it comes to integration. Not all countries have the same jarring and visceral division between foreigners and local society.
  - HunterV 13y ago
    It feels "off" because it's strange for Americans, who grow up in a culture that is made up of immigrants to understand that cultures with centuries of history aren't very accepting of people who are different. Don't get me wrong, the international community is very accepting, even loving. But when you get to actual nationals, other than a few exceptions, you'll never be truly accepted.
    - doktrin 13y ago
      > It feels "off" because it's strange for Americans, who grow up in a culture that is made up of immigrants to understand that cultures with centuries of history aren't very accepting of people who are different. I lived there for a few years as a teenager, and didn't really have an experience that jived with the general atmosphere depicted in the movie. YMMV, I suppose.
  - barry-cotter 13y ago
    Come now, Japan is by some distance the most xenophobic first world country. If you look Asian, learn to speak Japanese very well, adopt a Japanese name and citizenship you can integrate but those are all necessary conditions. On the overplaying the foreignness people on their first sojourn in a really foreign country do the tourist goggling all the time. One needs a lot of foreign travel experience to start treating it as just some more different shit.
acabal 13y ago
More than a few of these arguments are basically, "The money's better there." Which might be true. But emigrating to a place is a big decision and money shouldn't be the factor you use to make it. Depending on where you go, building a new network of friends, learning the language, and acclimating to the culture can be difficult and weigh against your happiness far more than money can offset. And if you lose a year unhappily working in a foreign land just because the money's good, well, that's a year you can't get back. Instead of career-oriented work abroad, I always suggest that younger people with few responsibilities save up money for a year or two and then take a year or two off to travel instead. You have to commit to a longish period--two weeks in Hawaii or Berlin doesn't count. But the experiences you have, and most importantly the people you meet (including other travelers) will change your perspective permanently, and you'll then be better armed to make a decision on where to build your career.
- billpaetzke 13y ago
  I agree with you on the difficulty of building your life in a foreign land and the happiness or lack thereof associated with that. I have been thinking a lot about this concept of global living/citizenship. It can open a lot of doors but also leave a lot of loose ends. It sounds sexy but then life becomes complicated as you have two (or more) lives.
sneak 13y ago
The cost of living thing is very, very real. Have US customers, but don't fucking live here (I am in NYC to visit). There are many places where you can have a much better standard of living than the US for the same price - including regular roundtrip airfare to visit your friends and family. There are frequently huge tax advantages, as well.
jballanc 13y ago
This has been my experience... > Your market value is higher elsewhere While true, it's also slightly simplistic. It's more than just market value. There's an American mindset that has its plusses and minuses (like any mindset), but the ability to combine the plusses of the American mindset (entrepreneurship, risk taking, "fake it until you make it") with the plusses of foreign mindsets (in my case: high value on community, stubbornness, practicality) can be a potent mix. > The quality-of-life/cost-of-living ratio is now much higher elsewhere I'm reminded of when I lived in NYC, and friends would ask how I could afford it. My answer was that you value different things differently when price informs your choices. My first years in NYC I didn't have cable, didn't have a car, and even used dial-up from home. I didn't mind, though, because there was plenty to do without TV, easy public transit everywhere, and lots of cafes and libraries with network connections. Similarly, I've found that where I am now a lot of things are cheaper (fruits, vegitables, dining out...medicine and health care) and some are much, much more expensive (cars, gasoline). Again, I let price inform my decision making, and overall I feel much happier and healthier now that I'm eating well, socializing more, and walking places. > The Jobs Aren’t Coming Back Put another way: the rest of the world is waking up! Is there really any reason that most programming jobs should be in Silicon Valley? Are people in Brazil, Germany, Malaysia, Kenya, etc. less capable of writing software? On top of this, many places are getting a "second chance" to grow their economies (esp. the service sector) without making the same mistakes as the US (allowing the skilled trade/manufacturing sector to languish). > It’s time for everyone to grow up and become global citizens The most shocking thing, for me, on leaving the US was realizing that there is almost no other country in the world where someone would dare consider themselves "educated" or "well cultured" yet have never been somewhere where the people did not speak their language. Go where they don't speak English. Then you will understand how to communicate. --- Also, for everyone here commenting about China and India, a small suggestion: look at Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Turkey, and the Middle East. The demographics are positively tantalizing for anyone looking for economies about to take off!
- gorrillamcd 13y ago
  #4 is very true. Many americans I know live in a bubble (a very scientific survey, I know). They only get news from the "outside world" filtered by the talking heads on TV (no matter the political persuasion). When I first came to Mexico, everyone thought I'd be kidnapped and ransomed the second I set foot in the country. I've never felt in danger the 4 years I've been here. Sure, there are some places (mainly Juarez and seedy parts of the border towns) that aren't safe at all, but Mexico is so much larger than those places. It might not be for everyone, sure, but living abroad at least temporarily is an experience that is bound to teach you a lot if you take it seriously and stop being a tourist. Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong comment, but it still applies somewhat.
EGreg 13y ago
Being a big fish in a small pond has its perks. You can go for vacation to developing countries such as Thailand and live like a king. People would be willing to do whatever you want for money. Steak dinners would be $5. Obviously the internet lets you have much richer clients in Western countries subsidizing your lifestyle in developing countries. But leaving all your family and friends behind to live there might not be for everyone. There was recently a nice article posted about relationships being more valuable to human beings than ambition: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationships-are-more-important-than-ambition/275025/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationsh... Not to mention, for a guy like me who is Jewish, and whose family would like to see him marry someone Jewish as well, moving to a country where there are very few Jews would just be decreasing my chances of starting a family. That's why it's good to travel for long periods when you're younger.
- 108 13y ago
  There are Jews living in other parts of the world: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/bnei-menashe-move-to-israel-indian-jews-from-lost-tribe-arrive-in-holy-land-photos_n_2359086.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/bnei-menashe-move-t...
  - EGreg 13y ago
    While that's true -- Jews live everywhere around the world -- it's not like lots of Jews live in places with low income. Realistically I'd probably meet someone in a city: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_area...
bane 13y ago
I've been privileged to have spent a little bit of time overseas, travelling, on exchange, working and living. I've hit most of North America and Western Europe, throughout the Caribbean, bits of Asia and a fair swath of the Middle East. I agree that everybody should spend time overseas. It very rarely is a mind-warping experience, but over time it changes your perspective in ways that are very hard to communicate. That slow process of taking textbook facts and walking around in them and making them real is something that has to be experienced to grok. I recall my wife, who grew up in South Korea and immigrated to the U.S., but who had never been to any other country, the first time we visited the mainland of Italy. The gargantuan magnitude of ancient Rome simply overwhelmed her. Growing up in a very old culture, and then living for years in a young one, she had built up a kind of healthy hubris that was simply shattered walking through thousand year old remains of something as mundane as a public bath or a stadium or a public square. Things which modern Korea has plenty of, but to see that somebody else had come up with the idea and built an empire full of these things centuries before her culture had even come up with their own written language was thoroughly humbling. She initially felt it diminished where she came from, but over time she was able to assimilate the experience and finally appreciated it, not as a diminishment of her identity, but as an expansion of it. All that being said, I disagree with this article: 1 - Marketplace value due to oversupply of college grads in the U.S. vs. undersupply elsewhere: In many of the countries I've visited, the number of highly educated barristas, taxi drivers and other low-end service workers is simply overwhelming. I've met people with dual Master's equivalents who spend their work day standing in a costume at the entrance to a parking garage at a department store bowing to cars coming in. Trust me, getting college grads into jobs where a college degree is needed is typically not a problem in most countries (think supply and demand, if this were even trivially true, those jobs would pay astronomical salaries, but even in highly developed economies like Japan, they don't). Unless you just happen to have some specific skill set, and happen to be fluent in the local language, chances are this entire reason simply won't hold true. 2 - Quality of life: True in some still developing, but otherwise nice countries, absolutely false in the developed areas. Moscow, while still so-so, can easily cost more than NYC to live in; 12 years ago you could live in Seoul for about 1/3rd of life in an urban part of the U.S., today it's about the same, a nice meal in Bangkok might cost you more than in U.S.! Caracas now ranks in the top 10 most expensive cities anywhere, likewise Singapore. Fancy paying $8 for a beer, or $20 for a movie ticket? Welcome to Kinshasa and Port Moresby respectively. Other modern conveniences might similarly cost much more, how about paying twice the U.S. price for an iPad with no app store support for your country. How about Singapore's insane car ownership tax, how about paying $40,000 for a Honda Civic? And oh yeah, gas will cost you. Let's move to Seoul where you have to put a deposit down on an apartment so large you can't even buy the car in the first place. Let's not forget lax food safety standards, corrupt police, unbelievable pollution...yes I'd like to live in Beijing where every day outside is like smoking a pack of cigarettes. Before you know it, the thin veneer of pseudo-quality of life familiarness goes away astonishingly quickly when you're squatting over a hole in dirty train station because the camel foot you ate wasn't cooked enough. 3 - The Jobs aren't coming back. Nonsense, it's a pendulum for some jobs and doesn't matter for others. Do you think all the high-end finance jobs are heading for Urumqi? Or that we're suddenly going to start outsourcing local auto-accident lawyers to Dehradun? If anything, the U.S. is shifting lots of outsource jobs back into the states after realizing that outsourcing development, even at cheapo labor rates, often costs more. If the number of Indians moving into my part of the U.S. for high-end work is any kind of thermometer, the jobs are definitely coming back. A commuter bus I take every once in a while completely defies this logic with a majority of the riders educated and Indian! As China's standard of living is increasing we're seeing the obvious effects, it's not necessarily going to be cheaper to build stuff in China forever going forward. And obviously, moving to an area like that defies #1 and #2 above due to lousy pay and long hours in a job where you can assemble an insignificant part of a device that'll be bought and used thousands of miles from you. 4 - Yeah, broaden your horizons! I don't disagree, but think of it this way, would a New Yorker, struggling in the tough competitive environment of NYC suddenly move to rural Arkansas because he might get a job more easily? No! Why move to another's country's version of the same? I've often been surprised at the places I'd love to move to (and even at the places I wouldn't). But I've got to get real, no matter how cheap the table wine is in Florence, moving there is not going to give me any kind of jobs benefit whatsoever. Take an ESL teaching job for a year in another country for the exposure? Cool! But don't think it'll substantially distinguish you in the market or give you any other benefit other than a unique life experience.
Ovid 13y ago
I'm an American who's lived in five countries and currently lives in Paris, France with my French wife and our French-American daughter (and if you're curious, I have a blog about how you can move abroad, too: http://www.overseas-exile.com/p/start-here.html http://www.overseas-exile.com/p/start-here.html). I note that the author says their aren't enough jobs in the US or Europe and I've got an issue with that. Yes, Europe is also struggling with the world economic issues and part of this is the fiscal/monetary dichotomy of the Euro that they've not worked out, and clinging to austerity to save face (and because it sounds reasonable when the overspending straw man argument is pulled out). However, most of Europe (I tentatively exlude the UK) doesn't have the deep structural problems that the US has. * The US has dropped from 1st to 12th place, internationally, in the number of people under 34 who've graduated from college (http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/reports_pdf/Progress_Report_2010.pdf http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files...) * The US murder rate, while at it's lowest since 1995, is four to five times higher than any Western EU country (http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/...) * The US the highest number of people in prison, per capita, than any other country on the planet (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris...) * The US has gone from one of the developed world's lowest infant mortality rates to one of the highest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-mortality-rate-united-states_b_1620664.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-...) * US education levels are falling (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.5337504e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9Li...) And I haven't even talked about health care or income inequality or the chipping away at the petrodollar, potentially ending the dollar's status as the default world reserve currency. The US has deep, deep structural problems and these are long-term problems. Europe has some issues, too, but I don't believe the traditional US advantages of entrepreneurship and limited regulatory environment are enough to offset the EU problems. The 21st century belongs to Europe and China unless the US stops its political crap, rolls up its sleeves and gets back to being the America we thought it was. There's still a huge potential in the US and it's a great place that I miss in many ways, but it's no longer the land of opportunity (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-economic-mobility-is-so-low-in-one-chart/2011/11/17/gIQA4IFpUN_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-eco...).
mk3 13y ago
In my humble opinion everyone should live at least for a year outside of their own country. It makes people more open, and better. People who always been living in one country tend to be more stubborn, and trying to hold to their beliefs as if it's death or life question.

54 points by thestranger 13y ago

rdl 13y ago

Everyone should work overseas for a while, even if it's just in other first world countries, I think. Not because you have better opportunities, necessarily (for a certain class of tech startup, Silicon Valley is still the best place...), but for learning about other cultures, etc.

resu 13y ago

Other than teaching English abroad, how else can recent grads find work abroad? The article really drops the ball on that one and the meager links provided are useless. I spent nearly two years abroad in undergrad interning abroad, but even then, finding a relevant (not teaching English) full time job in Asia or Europe when you're in North America is extremely hard.

newbie12 13y ago
Yep, I've worked in China and the only way to get to live abroad on a fat expat stipend is to have your existing US or European employer rotate you there. If you try to get a job through local channels you'll be getting a crappy local salary. Do not try to work overseas right out of school-- you are far better off getting solid industry experience and then trying to make the jump. Working abroad is a career-killer too, most of these operations are corporate backwaters.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  This isn't true. I'm a LHF (local hired foreigner) in China, and my pay is decent enough. The lack of a package isn't bad if you don't have kids. I also work for a big American corp (but not as an expat), so my prospects are pretty good when I decide to go back. Not exactly a career killer, even if not working at home headquarters always has a disadvantage associated with it.
  - newbie12 13y ago
    Yeah but you obviously have a doctorate and commensurate experience to get hired. With respect to local hiring, I'm sure making less than what you'd earn in Seattle or San Jose is ok, but it isn't the high life that the OP was talking about.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      The high life is a myth, but I'm not starving. The fact that I can take a taxi to work everyday and not own a car has some savings also. It would be really hard to get hired out of college into a tech job overseas. But with 3-4 years experience in San Jose, you could transfer to Beijing fairly easily, though as a LHF, not an expat. To get an expat package, you need to be a big shot.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
I found a good extremely appropriate post doc in Switzerland, which was completely serendipitous. After I was done in Switzerland, I emailed some manager at Microsoft China out of the blue, and have been in Beijing ever since. If you have specialized skills, you should be able to find demand for them anywhere. You probably can't start a career here with nothing special in your resume, but you can work for a big corp (e.g. Microsoft) and eventually get transferred to one of their overseas R&D offices. They generally value experience, which might not be something they can get locally.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  How do you feel about destroying your lungs by living in Beijing? A friend of mine was so happy to leave after just half a year there.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Winters suck. All the other seasons are bearable.
pwim 13y ago
I got a job as a developer in Japan right after I graduated from University. I wrote about my experience here: http://www.tokyodev.com/2011/08/19/finding-a-job-as-a-ruby-developer-in-japan/ http://www.tokyodev.com/2011/08/19/finding-a-job-as-a-ruby-d... Having an in demand skillset (like being a developer) opens up a lot of possibilities.
- resu 13y ago
  Interesting read, thanks for sharing! I spent two summers in Tokyo in an investment bank, although I was too focused on having as much fun as possible to find what non-finance opportunities were available. Also, the prospect of working actual Japanese hours were not very exciting. How was the work-life balance at Ubit? How is the market in Japan for (foreign) developers? If a recent grad were to follow your footsteps, how difficult would it be to find a decent and relevant job now, compared to 2006?
  - pwim 13y ago
    Even though I worked at a Japanese company, I didn't work Japanese hours. 10am-7pm were my typical hours. Good developers are in demand everywhere! If you're a developer who has some side-project / open source contribution you can show off, I think finding a job isn't too tough. I can't really comment on now vs 2006. I had no network back then, so that job was literally the only interesting looking one I could find. Now, I know of lots of good companies.
bane 13y ago
In the U.S., a couple options: Join the military - we have bases all over the world and chances are you might end up assigned to one. Join a Federal Agency that does overseas work - State, Intelligence Community, etc. Join a megacorp with a substantial overseas presence, apply only for jobs that are in countries you want to live in. They'll handle all the work visa nonsense. The good news is that for most of these, there's lots of bonus pay/subsidized housing involved. Working overseas you can save unbelievable amounts of money.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

I think the math is a bit wrong. Your money actually doesn't go much farther in Beijing, Bangkok, New Delhi, Kuala Lumpur, etc... Some things might be cheaper (eating out) but many things will be more expensive (cars, iPads, decent clothes). You might be able to hire a driver for 2 or 3000 RMB a month in China, but you still have to buy the car for $4-50,000. At best, its basically a wash, and if you are American, you'll realize how much cheaper most things are back home. Also, how much do you value clean air and decent schooling for your kids? I've been out for 7 years now, and I don't regret it. But its not an easy win life style wise.

yen223 13y ago
Don't forget the worse part: salaries are much much lower in third-world nations - at least here in Malaysia - especially after considering currency conversion. To put this into perspective: median annual salary for software engineers in Malaysia is about RM45,000, which is $15,000 a year. A 'highly-paid' consultant might make about RM150,000 a year - all of $50,000 per annum.
- greg5green 13y ago
  Don't forget that Americans working overseas still have to pay the IRS!
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    We get a $90K blanket exemption + we can directly deduct whatever we pay for taxes in the country we are working in. So it usually works out to $0 + the expense of filing a tax form. Disclaimer: I am not a tax attorney and this shouldn't be taken as advice.
- sneak 13y ago
  So have US customers (who pay near-US rates) and outsource all your work to skilled local contractors. Added bonus: it scales way beyond your normal 168/hour week cap.

rayiner 13y ago

I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week). Some American was talking about the investment opportunities in China, and the cultural differences between the countries. He came to free speech, and he basically said: "in the U.S. we can say whatever we want, but in China they think that's silly!" I.e. apologizing for the repressive Chinese communist government just because there is a buck to be made there now. My opinion of such people couldn't be lower. The fact is that India and Asia are not pleasant places outside the little bubbles westerners and the local rich people build for themselves. You want to go live in New Delhi? Be my guest: http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi05.jpg http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi05.jp..., http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi08.jpg http://www.voyages-photos.fr/images/new-delhi/new-delhi08.jp.... I'll be chilling here in America, where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries. EDIT: I'm not advocating being ignorant of the world. People should travel, and people should learn what there is to learn from other countries. But I consider it a problem if young Americans have to go abroad because there are no opportunities at home. That's a failure of our social system, and a threat to our communities and our institutions. My father didn't leave Bangladesh just so my daughter would have to go back.

stormen 13y ago
You're incredibly ignorant. You should leave the US; not because the rest of the world is necessarily better (yet some parts undoubtedly - in general - are), but because it gives you a broader perspective on your own life and situation. Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town.
- rayiner 13y ago
  I was born in Bangkok, Thailand, lived in Bangladesh for several years, and have traveled fairly extensively in Asia and Europe as a child/young teenager.

mathattack 13y ago

#4 - Becoming a global citizen is the most important reason. It's good for cultural and personal reasons. If you can solve a problem in another language and culture, you have so much more strength coming home.

HunterV 13y ago

As someone who grew up living all around the world I have this to say: Watch the move "Lost in Translation" If you can deal with forever being isolated, even with friends, then by all means live overseas. You will always be an outsider, no matter how acclimated you become. If you're ok with that, then you'll be fine. Otherwise, stick to America, it really is an awesome country to live in.

doktrin 13y ago
Ugh. Really? I truly don't get the hype about that movie. They definitely got the visuals right, but a lot of it felt "off". Quite a few of the cultural stereotypes were awkwardly over-played too. Also, Japan is really a different bird when it comes to integration. Not all countries have the same jarring and visceral division between foreigners and local society.
- HunterV 13y ago
  It feels "off" because it's strange for Americans, who grow up in a culture that is made up of immigrants to understand that cultures with centuries of history aren't very accepting of people who are different. Don't get me wrong, the international community is very accepting, even loving. But when you get to actual nationals, other than a few exceptions, you'll never be truly accepted.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    > It feels "off" because it's strange for Americans, who grow up in a culture that is made up of immigrants to understand that cultures with centuries of history aren't very accepting of people who are different. I lived there for a few years as a teenager, and didn't really have an experience that jived with the general atmosphere depicted in the movie. YMMV, I suppose.
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  Come now, Japan is by some distance the most xenophobic first world country. If you look Asian, learn to speak Japanese very well, adopt a Japanese name and citizenship you can integrate but those are all necessary conditions. On the overplaying the foreignness people on their first sojourn in a really foreign country do the tourist goggling all the time. One needs a lot of foreign travel experience to start treating it as just some more different shit.

acabal 13y ago

More than a few of these arguments are basically, "The money's better there." Which might be true. But emigrating to a place is a big decision and money shouldn't be the factor you use to make it. Depending on where you go, building a new network of friends, learning the language, and acclimating to the culture can be difficult and weigh against your happiness far more than money can offset. And if you lose a year unhappily working in a foreign land just because the money's good, well, that's a year you can't get back. Instead of career-oriented work abroad, I always suggest that younger people with few responsibilities save up money for a year or two and then take a year or two off to travel instead. You have to commit to a longish period--two weeks in Hawaii or Berlin doesn't count. But the experiences you have, and most importantly the people you meet (including other travelers) will change your perspective permanently, and you'll then be better armed to make a decision on where to build your career.

billpaetzke 13y ago
I agree with you on the difficulty of building your life in a foreign land and the happiness or lack thereof associated with that. I have been thinking a lot about this concept of global living/citizenship. It can open a lot of doors but also leave a lot of loose ends. It sounds sexy but then life becomes complicated as you have two (or more) lives.

sneak 13y ago

The cost of living thing is very, very real. Have US customers, but don't fucking live here (I am in NYC to visit). There are many places where you can have a much better standard of living than the US for the same price - including regular roundtrip airfare to visit your friends and family. There are frequently huge tax advantages, as well.

jballanc 13y ago

This has been my experience... > Your market value is higher elsewhere While true, it's also slightly simplistic. It's more than just market value. There's an American mindset that has its plusses and minuses (like any mindset), but the ability to combine the plusses of the American mindset (entrepreneurship, risk taking, "fake it until you make it") with the plusses of foreign mindsets (in my case: high value on community, stubbornness, practicality) can be a potent mix. > The quality-of-life/cost-of-living ratio is now much higher elsewhere I'm reminded of when I lived in NYC, and friends would ask how I could afford it. My answer was that you value different things differently when price informs your choices. My first years in NYC I didn't have cable, didn't have a car, and even used dial-up from home. I didn't mind, though, because there was plenty to do without TV, easy public transit everywhere, and lots of cafes and libraries with network connections. Similarly, I've found that where I am now a lot of things are cheaper (fruits, vegitables, dining out...medicine and health care) and some are much, much more expensive (cars, gasoline). Again, I let price inform my decision making, and overall I feel much happier and healthier now that I'm eating well, socializing more, and walking places. > The Jobs Aren’t Coming Back Put another way: the rest of the world is waking up! Is there really any reason that most programming jobs should be in Silicon Valley? Are people in Brazil, Germany, Malaysia, Kenya, etc. less capable of writing software? On top of this, many places are getting a "second chance" to grow their economies (esp. the service sector) without making the same mistakes as the US (allowing the skilled trade/manufacturing sector to languish). > It’s time for everyone to grow up and become global citizens The most shocking thing, for me, on leaving the US was realizing that there is almost no other country in the world where someone would dare consider themselves "educated" or "well cultured" yet have never been somewhere where the people did not speak their language. Go where they don't speak English. Then you will understand how to communicate. --- Also, for everyone here commenting about China and India, a small suggestion: look at Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Turkey, and the Middle East. The demographics are positively tantalizing for anyone looking for economies about to take off!

gorrillamcd 13y ago
#4 is very true. Many americans I know live in a bubble (a very scientific survey, I know). They only get news from the "outside world" filtered by the talking heads on TV (no matter the political persuasion). When I first came to Mexico, everyone thought I'd be kidnapped and ransomed the second I set foot in the country. I've never felt in danger the 4 years I've been here. Sure, there are some places (mainly Juarez and seedy parts of the border towns) that aren't safe at all, but Mexico is so much larger than those places. It might not be for everyone, sure, but living abroad at least temporarily is an experience that is bound to teach you a lot if you take it seriously and stop being a tourist. Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong comment, but it still applies somewhat.

EGreg 13y ago

Being a big fish in a small pond has its perks. You can go for vacation to developing countries such as Thailand and live like a king. People would be willing to do whatever you want for money. Steak dinners would be $5. Obviously the internet lets you have much richer clients in Western countries subsidizing your lifestyle in developing countries. But leaving all your family and friends behind to live there might not be for everyone. There was recently a nice article posted about relationships being more valuable to human beings than ambition: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationships-are-more-important-than-ambition/275025/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationsh... Not to mention, for a guy like me who is Jewish, and whose family would like to see him marry someone Jewish as well, moving to a country where there are very few Jews would just be decreasing my chances of starting a family. That's why it's good to travel for long periods when you're younger.

108 13y ago
There are Jews living in other parts of the world: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/bnei-menashe-move-to-israel-indian-jews-from-lost-tribe-arrive-in-holy-land-photos_n_2359086.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/bnei-menashe-move-t...
- EGreg 13y ago
  While that's true -- Jews live everywhere around the world -- it's not like lots of Jews live in places with low income. Realistically I'd probably meet someone in a city: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_area...

bane 13y ago

I've been privileged to have spent a little bit of time overseas, travelling, on exchange, working and living. I've hit most of North America and Western Europe, throughout the Caribbean, bits of Asia and a fair swath of the Middle East. I agree that everybody should spend time overseas. It very rarely is a mind-warping experience, but over time it changes your perspective in ways that are very hard to communicate. That slow process of taking textbook facts and walking around in them and making them real is something that has to be experienced to grok. I recall my wife, who grew up in South Korea and immigrated to the U.S., but who had never been to any other country, the first time we visited the mainland of Italy. The gargantuan magnitude of ancient Rome simply overwhelmed her. Growing up in a very old culture, and then living for years in a young one, she had built up a kind of healthy hubris that was simply shattered walking through thousand year old remains of something as mundane as a public bath or a stadium or a public square. Things which modern Korea has plenty of, but to see that somebody else had come up with the idea and built an empire full of these things centuries before her culture had even come up with their own written language was thoroughly humbling. She initially felt it diminished where she came from, but over time she was able to assimilate the experience and finally appreciated it, not as a diminishment of her identity, but as an expansion of it. All that being said, I disagree with this article: 1 - Marketplace value due to oversupply of college grads in the U.S. vs. undersupply elsewhere: In many of the countries I've visited, the number of highly educated barristas, taxi drivers and other low-end service workers is simply overwhelming. I've met people with dual Master's equivalents who spend their work day standing in a costume at the entrance to a parking garage at a department store bowing to cars coming in. Trust me, getting college grads into jobs where a college degree is needed is typically not a problem in most countries (think supply and demand, if this were even trivially true, those jobs would pay astronomical salaries, but even in highly developed economies like Japan, they don't). Unless you just happen to have some specific skill set, and happen to be fluent in the local language, chances are this entire reason simply won't hold true. 2 - Quality of life: True in some still developing, but otherwise nice countries, absolutely false in the developed areas. Moscow, while still so-so, can easily cost more than NYC to live in; 12 years ago you could live in Seoul for about 1/3rd of life in an urban part of the U.S., today it's about the same, a nice meal in Bangkok might cost you more than in U.S.! Caracas now ranks in the top 10 most expensive cities anywhere, likewise Singapore. Fancy paying $8 for a beer, or $20 for a movie ticket? Welcome to Kinshasa and Port Moresby respectively. Other modern conveniences might similarly cost much more, how about paying twice the U.S. price for an iPad with no app store support for your country. How about Singapore's insane car ownership tax, how about paying $40,000 for a Honda Civic? And oh yeah, gas will cost you. Let's move to Seoul where you have to put a deposit down on an apartment so large you can't even buy the car in the first place. Let's not forget lax food safety standards, corrupt police, unbelievable pollution...yes I'd like to live in Beijing where every day outside is like smoking a pack of cigarettes. Before you know it, the thin veneer of pseudo-quality of life familiarness goes away astonishingly quickly when you're squatting over a hole in dirty train station because the camel foot you ate wasn't cooked enough. 3 - The Jobs aren't coming back. Nonsense, it's a pendulum for some jobs and doesn't matter for others. Do you think all the high-end finance jobs are heading for Urumqi? Or that we're suddenly going to start outsourcing local auto-accident lawyers to Dehradun? If anything, the U.S. is shifting lots of outsource jobs back into the states after realizing that outsourcing development, even at cheapo labor rates, often costs more. If the number of Indians moving into my part of the U.S. for high-end work is any kind of thermometer, the jobs are definitely coming back. A commuter bus I take every once in a while completely defies this logic with a majority of the riders educated and Indian! As China's standard of living is increasing we're seeing the obvious effects, it's not necessarily going to be cheaper to build stuff in China forever going forward. And obviously, moving to an area like that defies #1 and #2 above due to lousy pay and long hours in a job where you can assemble an insignificant part of a device that'll be bought and used thousands of miles from you. 4 - Yeah, broaden your horizons! I don't disagree, but think of it this way, would a New Yorker, struggling in the tough competitive environment of NYC suddenly move to rural Arkansas because he might get a job more easily? No! Why move to another's country's version of the same? I've often been surprised at the places I'd love to move to (and even at the places I wouldn't). But I've got to get real, no matter how cheap the table wine is in Florence, moving there is not going to give me any kind of jobs benefit whatsoever. Take an ESL teaching job for a year in another country for the exposure? Cool! But don't think it'll substantially distinguish you in the market or give you any other benefit other than a unique life experience.

Ovid 13y ago

I'm an American who's lived in five countries and currently lives in Paris, France with my French wife and our French-American daughter (and if you're curious, I have a blog about how you can move abroad, too: http://www.overseas-exile.com/p/start-here.html http://www.overseas-exile.com/p/start-here.html). I note that the author says their aren't enough jobs in the US or Europe and I've got an issue with that. Yes, Europe is also struggling with the world economic issues and part of this is the fiscal/monetary dichotomy of the Euro that they've not worked out, and clinging to austerity to save face (and because it sounds reasonable when the overspending straw man argument is pulled out). However, most of Europe (I tentatively exlude the UK) doesn't have the deep structural problems that the US has. * The US has dropped from 1st to 12th place, internationally, in the number of people under 34 who've graduated from college (http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/reports_pdf/Progress_Report_2010.pdf http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files...) * The US murder rate, while at it's lowest since 1995, is four to five times higher than any Western EU country (http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/...) * The US the highest number of people in prison, per capita, than any other country on the planet (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris...) * The US has gone from one of the developed world's lowest infant mortality rates to one of the highest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-mortality-rate-united-states_b_1620664.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-...) * US education levels are falling (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.5337504e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9Li...) And I haven't even talked about health care or income inequality or the chipping away at the petrodollar, potentially ending the dollar's status as the default world reserve currency. The US has deep, deep structural problems and these are long-term problems. Europe has some issues, too, but I don't believe the traditional US advantages of entrepreneurship and limited regulatory environment are enough to offset the EU problems. The 21st century belongs to Europe and China unless the US stops its political crap, rolls up its sleeves and gets back to being the America we thought it was. There's still a huge potential in the US and it's a great place that I miss in many ways, but it's no longer the land of opportunity (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-economic-mobility-is-so-low-in-one-chart/2011/11/17/gIQA4IFpUN_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-eco...).

mk3 13y ago

In my humble opinion everyone should live at least for a year outside of their own country. It makes people more open, and better. People who always been living in one country tend to be more stubborn, and trying to hold to their beliefs as if it's death or life question.