6 ms·

I have never been able to consciously visualize (meaning: think in visual mental images). All of my conscious thought is in the auditory mode, though I know wha

by wilder 13y ago

I have never been able to consciously visualize (meaning: think in visual mental images). All of my conscious thought is in the auditory mode, though I know what it would be like to visualize as it happens occasionally in a dream. I have always wished more than anything to have such experiences while fully conscious (to see my mother's face and so on). There has been a fairly longstanding debate in philosophy and psychology about whether visual mental images even exist, yet when I discuss the issue with friends none of them can believe or understand that I lack imagery. I've read a fair amount without encountering real evidence that the capacity can be developed. I've certainly spent time trying, but possibly in the wrong way. A good place to start on the "mental imagery as simulation" literature is Kosslyn, e.g. http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic561942.files/2009Moulton_PhilosTransRoyalSocB364_MentalImageryMentalEmulation.pdf http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic561942.files/2009... For an accessible window on the debate: http://www.edge.org/video/what-shape-are-a-german-shepherds-ears http://www.edge.org/video/what-shape-are-a-german-shepherds-... and http://www.edge.org/discourse/shepardears.html http://www.edge.org/discourse/shepardears.html Curious to lean whether HN harbors any non-visualizers.

Gravityloss 13y ago
Think how hard it is for visual thinkers to produce one-dimensional text of their two or multidimensional ideas. They see all the relations between things directly but it is hard to express in text. It's not always a blessing.
- wilder 13y ago
  It has been intermittently amazing to me that I not only get by but am even considered intelligent without what seems (to me) an absolute gift and superpower that most people possess. The rest of the time it's just obvious that there are tradeoffs, or that it's behaviorally insignificant unless one is off the chart positive on some modality. Would still give anything to picture though.
ztratar 13y ago
Wow. My experience is drastically different than yours. I've almost always thought of things through mental imagery. It comes naturally to me (which really helped in calculus 3, haha). I can say that with confidence. Thanks for the link. I wonder how many non-visualizers are out there, too.
- wilder 13y ago
  Sounds wonderful. The odd thing is that I can imagine what it would be like to have the sort of visual imagination that would be helpful in calculus. Unfortunately it turns out that imagined imagination is worthless for calculus.
  - ztratar 13y ago
    Haha. Imagine-ception.
- jimmaswell 13y ago
  Reminds me how there's apparently a decently-sized part of the population that doesn't intuitively know left and right. I wouldn't have believed it much if I didn't meet someone with the issue and someone else who claims their wife has it.
  - dsfasfasf 13y ago
    Reminds me of people with dyslexia. I wonder if the two are related.
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    I've always had problems immediately referring to left or right. As a kid I had to recall which hand I used for the pledge of allegiance to remember which side was right vs left. To this day it takes me a couple of seconds of thought to pull it out when my mind is not already primed for it.
realitygrill 13y ago
I have a well developed spatial sense, but am very weak visually. When I try to visualize, the best I get is impressions of abstract glow-y lines that fade away quickly. I also tried to develop mental visualization but to little effect (I did have a vivid dream once. Only once, though.) obligatory LW link: http://lesswrong.com/lw/dr/generalizing_from_one_example/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/dr/generalizing_from_one_example/
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  This perfectly describes me. Interestingly enough I attribute my great mathematical ability to my ability to "visualize" problems, although I don't literally see objects in my mind's eye. Its almost like my logical circuitry is co-oping my visual processing circuitry to solve abstract logical problems. So while I'm thinking of a problem there is a visual aspect to thought, but its nothing concrete enough that I could, say, draw on paper.
  - solistice 13y ago
    So you can't see the matrix? Take the red pill (No, that's not Modafil painted red) Neo. On a more serious note, when do you understand something? For me, it is when I can visualize how the parts of the function interact with each other, for example for Summation, how many little functions (those functions are visual images too) in a long finite line stack on top of each other and create a large something, that might get fed into something else.
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    > Its almost like my logical circuitry is co-oping my visual processing circuitry to solve abstract logical problems. Wetware CUDA, nice.
dsfasfasf 13y ago
Thank you for this. Even though I consider myself pretty average now you've made me feel like I have some secret power. It helps a lot when I visualize things. Also, writing ideas out in a narrative also helps. So, I guess I can do both. Genius Here!!! (Standing up, wide eyed, looking proud with an idiotic smile) p.s. I don't actually believe that you cannot visualize images. Can you draw a stick human figure? Did it pop into your head when I mentioned stick human figure? There you go, you just visualized it. p.s I guess inability to visualize something could be something similar to dyslexia?
- wilder 13y ago
  It's frustrating when people suggest I can visualize and just don't know it. The way one thinks is the most first-personally obvious thing in the world, and I've been sore about the way I do it since I was in elementary school wanting to imagine strawberries to count with. Despite the literature I never accuse visualizers of the reverse (ie that you only think you have mental images), but when I do challenge incredulous friends about their phenomenology some discover it's actually much less pictoral than they'd believed: eg, "imagine a tiger, how many stripes?" or "imagine an ant crawling across a checkered picnic table toward a jar of grape jelly, what color square is it on now? what about now?" or "imagine a 3x3 word matrix whose rows read 'too', 'aid', 'ole' -- read the column words straight off without sounding out or going letter by letter". Granted, others can do these with an ease that amazes me. "Can you draw a stick human figure? Did it pop into your head when I mentioned stick human figure? There you go, you just visualized it." Yes I can draw a stick figure. I'm not an idiot, and nothing pops into my head other than the sound of the word and some xkcd affect. Meanwhile, it astounds me that a single picture can pop into your head: how do you know what position to put the stick figure in -- akimbo, Thinker? Imagine a flower -- ok, which, a rose or a marigold? Do you decide or does it just happen? How many different flowers can you visualize, and how quickly? Do they appear embedded in soil or just floating free? How many different varieties can you see at once? What prevents you from seeing more? Re: dyslexia -- I drew this link too, as I have very mild dyslexia. My father is profoundly dyslexic but claims vivid imagery.
  - klipt 13y ago
james1071 13y ago
Checkout Win Wenger & image streaming.
klipt 13y ago
If you've dreamed of a video game, or you know where things are in your bedroom without looking, or you can draw something, you're probably using visual memory, even if it's not overly detailed. You can probably train yourself to recall more detail if you observe things more closely. Remember the brain is great at compressing - there's no shame in remembering the important parts instead of just a raw photograph. I certainly don't remember things photographically, but if I memorize a piece of music from a printed version, for example, for a while I'll remember roughly where on the page I would be at any point. But after practicing from memory without the printed version, this spatial memory will fade away.
seekr 13y ago
Just to say you are not alone. Though my internal voice has no accent and does not sound like me. We may well differ in other respects. I remember the day I asked my English teacher what she was talking about when she described the impact of poetry on your mind...and the expression of pity she showed. I remember the day I discovered my sister read a novel and imagined a film as she read...this was the first time I was ever jealous of my sister. They were not good days. People might wonder what I remember. I remember my thoughts-emotions of the moment. So when I say I remember my teacher's expression I remember my thoughts-feelings about the fact that I could see her pity. However, there are major advantages especially as life as gone on. It seems to have taken me longer to get the hang of life as I have had to develop alternative ways of doing things that are often not as efficient as the visual method. But that has given me a powerful originality of thought and approach that I can increasingly use to my advantage now I am no longer undermined by the basics of life.

by wilder 13y ago

Gravityloss 13y ago

Think how hard it is for visual thinkers to produce one-dimensional text of their two or multidimensional ideas. They see all the relations between things directly but it is hard to express in text. It's not always a blessing.

wilder 13y ago
It has been intermittently amazing to me that I not only get by but am even considered intelligent without what seems (to me) an absolute gift and superpower that most people possess. The rest of the time it's just obvious that there are tradeoffs, or that it's behaviorally insignificant unless one is off the chart positive on some modality. Would still give anything to picture though.

ztratar 13y ago

Wow. My experience is drastically different than yours. I've almost always thought of things through mental imagery. It comes naturally to me (which really helped in calculus 3, haha). I can say that with confidence. Thanks for the link. I wonder how many non-visualizers are out there, too.

wilder 13y ago
Sounds wonderful. The odd thing is that I can imagine what it would be like to have the sort of visual imagination that would be helpful in calculus. Unfortunately it turns out that imagined imagination is worthless for calculus.
- ztratar 13y ago
  Haha. Imagine-ception.
jimmaswell 13y ago
Reminds me how there's apparently a decently-sized part of the population that doesn't intuitively know left and right. I wouldn't have believed it much if I didn't meet someone with the issue and someone else who claims their wife has it.
- dsfasfasf 13y ago
  Reminds me of people with dyslexia. I wonder if the two are related.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  I've always had problems immediately referring to left or right. As a kid I had to recall which hand I used for the pledge of allegiance to remember which side was right vs left. To this day it takes me a couple of seconds of thought to pull it out when my mind is not already primed for it.

realitygrill 13y ago

I have a well developed spatial sense, but am very weak visually. When I try to visualize, the best I get is impressions of abstract glow-y lines that fade away quickly. I also tried to develop mental visualization but to little effect (I did have a vivid dream once. Only once, though.) obligatory LW link: http://lesswrong.com/lw/dr/generalizing_from_one_example/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/dr/generalizing_from_one_example/

hackinthebochs 13y ago
This perfectly describes me. Interestingly enough I attribute my great mathematical ability to my ability to "visualize" problems, although I don't literally see objects in my mind's eye. Its almost like my logical circuitry is co-oping my visual processing circuitry to solve abstract logical problems. So while I'm thinking of a problem there is a visual aspect to thought, but its nothing concrete enough that I could, say, draw on paper.
- solistice 13y ago
  So you can't see the matrix? Take the red pill (No, that's not Modafil painted red) Neo. On a more serious note, when do you understand something? For me, it is when I can visualize how the parts of the function interact with each other, for example for Summation, how many little functions (those functions are visual images too) in a long finite line stack on top of each other and create a large something, that might get fed into something else.
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  > Its almost like my logical circuitry is co-oping my visual processing circuitry to solve abstract logical problems. Wetware CUDA, nice.

dsfasfasf 13y ago

Thank you for this. Even though I consider myself pretty average now you've made me feel like I have some secret power. It helps a lot when I visualize things. Also, writing ideas out in a narrative also helps. So, I guess I can do both. Genius Here!!! (Standing up, wide eyed, looking proud with an idiotic smile) p.s. I don't actually believe that you cannot visualize images. Can you draw a stick human figure? Did it pop into your head when I mentioned stick human figure? There you go, you just visualized it. p.s I guess inability to visualize something could be something similar to dyslexia?

wilder 13y ago
It's frustrating when people suggest I can visualize and just don't know it. The way one thinks is the most first-personally obvious thing in the world, and I've been sore about the way I do it since I was in elementary school wanting to imagine strawberries to count with. Despite the literature I never accuse visualizers of the reverse (ie that you only think you have mental images), but when I do challenge incredulous friends about their phenomenology some discover it's actually much less pictoral than they'd believed: eg, "imagine a tiger, how many stripes?" or "imagine an ant crawling across a checkered picnic table toward a jar of grape jelly, what color square is it on now? what about now?" or "imagine a 3x3 word matrix whose rows read 'too', 'aid', 'ole' -- read the column words straight off without sounding out or going letter by letter". Granted, others can do these with an ease that amazes me. "Can you draw a stick human figure? Did it pop into your head when I mentioned stick human figure? There you go, you just visualized it." Yes I can draw a stick figure. I'm not an idiot, and nothing pops into my head other than the sound of the word and some xkcd affect. Meanwhile, it astounds me that a single picture can pop into your head: how do you know what position to put the stick figure in -- akimbo, Thinker? Imagine a flower -- ok, which, a rose or a marigold? Do you decide or does it just happen? How many different flowers can you visualize, and how quickly? Do they appear embedded in soil or just floating free? How many different varieties can you see at once? What prevents you from seeing more? Re: dyslexia -- I drew this link too, as I have very mild dyslexia. My father is profoundly dyslexic but claims vivid imagery.
- klipt 13y ago

james1071 13y ago

Checkout Win Wenger & image streaming.

klipt 13y ago

If you've dreamed of a video game, or you know where things are in your bedroom without looking, or you can draw something, you're probably using visual memory, even if it's not overly detailed. You can probably train yourself to recall more detail if you observe things more closely. Remember the brain is great at compressing - there's no shame in remembering the important parts instead of just a raw photograph. I certainly don't remember things photographically, but if I memorize a piece of music from a printed version, for example, for a while I'll remember roughly where on the page I would be at any point. But after practicing from memory without the printed version, this spatial memory will fade away.

seekr 13y ago

Just to say you are not alone. Though my internal voice has no accent and does not sound like me. We may well differ in other respects. I remember the day I asked my English teacher what she was talking about when she described the impact of poetry on your mind...and the expression of pity she showed. I remember the day I discovered my sister read a novel and imagined a film as she read...this was the first time I was ever jealous of my sister. They were not good days. People might wonder what I remember. I remember my thoughts-emotions of the moment. So when I say I remember my teacher's expression I remember my thoughts-feelings about the fact that I could see her pity. However, there are major advantages especially as life as gone on. It seems to have taken me longer to get the hang of life as I have had to develop alternative ways of doing things that are often not as efficient as the visual method. But that has given me a powerful originality of thought and approach that I can increasingly use to my advantage now I am no longer undermined by the basics of life.