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I respect their intentions and I am sure they are doing good work. Regardless as a matter of principle I do not donate to organizations that discriminate on the

I respect their intentions and I am sure they are doing good work. Regardless as a matter of principle I do not donate to organizations that discriminate on the basis of sex.

pekk 13y ago
To my knowledge, PyLadies has not engaged in discrimination. It isn't discrimination to make groups which encourage minorities to code or get involved in the Python community or whatever. Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way.
- UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
  So if I set up a "boys only" tech club or society, people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder, calling me sexist, and claiming that I was trying to keep women out of tech' and or reinforcing the glass ceiling? Because frankly, I cannot see that going down well at all...
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    From the front page of http://www.pyladies.com/ http://www.pyladies.com/ : > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! You're making an unfounded assumption that PyLadies is women only.
    - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
      Fine, so what if I created something with the goal of: > We are an international mentorship group with a focus on helping more men become active participants and leaders in the Python open-source community. How do you think that would go down?
      - dougnap 13y ago
        Similar to how the Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) went down, I would imagine... Or are you arguing that all organizations that have a focus on expanding the role of a minority in a community that are inclusive to all in that community should be shut down because you believe some people would complain about having one focused on the majority? That is some twisted and messed up logic there. http://wearebit.com/ http://wearebit.com/ has quite the presence as SXSW. Haven't heard similar complaints about that...
        UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
        I think organisations have good intentions (reduce racism, sexism, etc) but in general unless they're very careful with their message they can do more harm than good. They try to raise women up but often times manage to do so in such a way (special treatment, privilege) which eats away at the respectability of not only the women they're trying to raise up but other women who got there on their own merits. I think we should do all we can to remove obstacles for women getting into tech', and that includes bad attitudes/sexism, however I think many of these organisations and "positive discrimination" are an obstacles that women unfortunately will need to overcome...
        dougnap 13y ago
        So.... there is no problem then. The PyLadies are exactly the type of organization that you support. No special treatment, no privilege. As a male member of the PyLadies I thank you for your support! Please consider coming by one of the events!
      - king_jester 13y ago
        Nobody in tech would bat an eye, although I would find it a bit ridiculous to try and get more men to be active in the Python community when the majority of the python community is men.
        rozap 13y ago
        While I support what these groups (like pyladies) are trying to do, you're not being honest with yourself if you think no one would bat an eye at forming a men's advocacy group. It absolutely would not go over well to have a group advocating male involvement in tech (not to mention it would be useless and a waste of time).
        king_jester 13y ago
        That would be true (I would be definitely notice), but at the same time I feel it would be likely we would see some folks who see nothing wrong with it and give it attention over groups like PyLadies, groups that serve people who don't really get the same kind of attention, representation, or space in tech.
        andrewdupont 13y ago
        I know I wouldn't give a damn. If your goal is that nobody on earth would bat an eye, that's a pretty high bar to clear. Keep in mind that some people (and a healthy percentage of them represented here on HN) find the existence of Pyladies troublesome. I suspect a similar percentage would find the existence of Pygentlemen troublesome.
      - budde 13y ago
        Men are not an underrepresented group in tech. It is not at all the same situation. Do you really not see that?
        UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
        Discrimination hurts the under-represented group; positive discrimination for women hurts women.
  - pekk 13y ago
    I wouldn't be screaming. I love to see Python groups. KKKPython might have trouble getting funding from PSF, but nobody should care if you want to get together to talk about Clojure only with gay dentists.
  - budde 13y ago
    PyLadies is not a female-exclusive group, and even if it were, there's a big difference between a group meant to advocate for and affirm an underrepresented group in the tech space and one that reinforces the attitudes that have led to that underrepresentation in the first place.
- lmickh 13y ago
  Whether or not it hurts men has nothing to do with discrimination. If the group does not allow men to join or benefit from it's opportunities, it is discrimination. The question is whether or not PyLadies allows men to join as full members. I honestly have no clue. I'm sure it would be easy to see it that way since it is described as a group of women. Now the question of whether all discrimination is bad is much more fun to ask.
  - trolley 13y ago
    > The question is whether or not PyLadies allows men to join as full members. What exactly are you looking for? PyLadies is not a dues-paying organization. There's no screening process or special clubhouse. Local PyLadies groups organize events (like hackathons, workshops, or happy hours) and people show up. Nobody stands at the door and checks your secret decoder ring to see if you're allowed in or not. This line from pyladies.org has already been mentioned above: > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! Nevertheless, it's still a fact that if you let people know "hey, there's going to be a hacknight this week, and most if not all of the attendees will be women" -- then many women would admit to feeling more comfortable in that sort of environment, and might subsequently be more likely to show up than they would otherwise.
    - lmickh 13y ago
      I'm not looking for anything. Just defining how one might determine if PyLadies was actually discriminating instead of just making claims that were unrelated to discrimination. Even admitted that I don't how they work. Reading their page and seeing them in action are two very different things. I have not had any direct interaction and therefor made no judgement of them. If they are in fact that open then they are not discriminating.
  - pekk 13y ago
    Thought experiment: what about Saudi women who want to learn Python? Starting a Python group for women only would be a legal necessity to serve those women in Saudi Arabia. It would not be discrimination at all. Now suppose we are in London, and there are women who want to learn Python but due to religion or upbringing would not be comfortable in mixed company. Neither of these cases is "discrimination" against anyone. It's not any kind of aggression at all. It's also not discrimination when there are women who feel intimidated by the main groups and want a group that is more explicitly friendly to women.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way. It's so easy to see everything as a competitive zero-sum-game. So that anything that helps women must be hurting men, right? It's wrong, but the idea is out there. Sigh.
steveklabnik 13y ago
Good thing PyLadies doesn't, then! I'm sure they look forward to your support. > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! > > http://www.pyladies.com/
- AgathaTheWitch 13y ago
  "We are an international mentorship group with a focus on helping more women become active participants and leaders in the Python open-source community." "PyLadies also aims to provide a friendly support network for women" "Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate," toward the goals described above. The goals described above are discriminatory in a way with which I do not agree, hence my lack of support.

I respect their intentions and I am sure they are doing good work. Regardless as a matter of principle I do not donate to organizations that discriminate on the basis of sex.

pekk 13y ago

To my knowledge, PyLadies has not engaged in discrimination. It isn't discrimination to make groups which encourage minorities to code or get involved in the Python community or whatever. Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way.

UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
So if I set up a "boys only" tech club or society, people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder, calling me sexist, and claiming that I was trying to keep women out of tech' and or reinforcing the glass ceiling? Because frankly, I cannot see that going down well at all...
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  From the front page of http://www.pyladies.com/ http://www.pyladies.com/ : > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! You're making an unfounded assumption that PyLadies is women only.
  - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
    Fine, so what if I created something with the goal of: > We are an international mentorship group with a focus on helping more men become active participants and leaders in the Python open-source community. How do you think that would go down?
    - dougnap 13y ago
      Similar to how the Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) went down, I would imagine... Or are you arguing that all organizations that have a focus on expanding the role of a minority in a community that are inclusive to all in that community should be shut down because you believe some people would complain about having one focused on the majority? That is some twisted and messed up logic there. http://wearebit.com/ http://wearebit.com/ has quite the presence as SXSW. Haven't heard similar complaints about that...
      - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
        I think organisations have good intentions (reduce racism, sexism, etc) but in general unless they're very careful with their message they can do more harm than good. They try to raise women up but often times manage to do so in such a way (special treatment, privilege) which eats away at the respectability of not only the women they're trying to raise up but other women who got there on their own merits. I think we should do all we can to remove obstacles for women getting into tech', and that includes bad attitudes/sexism, however I think many of these organisations and "positive discrimination" are an obstacles that women unfortunately will need to overcome...
        dougnap 13y ago
        So.... there is no problem then. The PyLadies are exactly the type of organization that you support. No special treatment, no privilege. As a male member of the PyLadies I thank you for your support! Please consider coming by one of the events!
    - king_jester 13y ago
      Nobody in tech would bat an eye, although I would find it a bit ridiculous to try and get more men to be active in the Python community when the majority of the python community is men.
      - rozap 13y ago
        While I support what these groups (like pyladies) are trying to do, you're not being honest with yourself if you think no one would bat an eye at forming a men's advocacy group. It absolutely would not go over well to have a group advocating male involvement in tech (not to mention it would be useless and a waste of time).
        king_jester 13y ago
        That would be true (I would be definitely notice), but at the same time I feel it would be likely we would see some folks who see nothing wrong with it and give it attention over groups like PyLadies, groups that serve people who don't really get the same kind of attention, representation, or space in tech.
        andrewdupont 13y ago
        I know I wouldn't give a damn. If your goal is that nobody on earth would bat an eye, that's a pretty high bar to clear. Keep in mind that some people (and a healthy percentage of them represented here on HN) find the existence of Pyladies troublesome. I suspect a similar percentage would find the existence of Pygentlemen troublesome.
    - budde 13y ago
      Men are not an underrepresented group in tech. It is not at all the same situation. Do you really not see that?
      - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
        Discrimination hurts the under-represented group; positive discrimination for women hurts women.
- pekk 13y ago
  I wouldn't be screaming. I love to see Python groups. KKKPython might have trouble getting funding from PSF, but nobody should care if you want to get together to talk about Clojure only with gay dentists.
- budde 13y ago
  PyLadies is not a female-exclusive group, and even if it were, there's a big difference between a group meant to advocate for and affirm an underrepresented group in the tech space and one that reinforces the attitudes that have led to that underrepresentation in the first place.
lmickh 13y ago
Whether or not it hurts men has nothing to do with discrimination. If the group does not allow men to join or benefit from it's opportunities, it is discrimination. The question is whether or not PyLadies allows men to join as full members. I honestly have no clue. I'm sure it would be easy to see it that way since it is described as a group of women. Now the question of whether all discrimination is bad is much more fun to ask.
- trolley 13y ago
  > The question is whether or not PyLadies allows men to join as full members. What exactly are you looking for? PyLadies is not a dues-paying organization. There's no screening process or special clubhouse. Local PyLadies groups organize events (like hackathons, workshops, or happy hours) and people show up. Nobody stands at the door and checks your secret decoder ring to see if you're allowed in or not. This line from pyladies.org has already been mentioned above: > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! Nevertheless, it's still a fact that if you let people know "hey, there's going to be a hacknight this week, and most if not all of the attendees will be women" -- then many women would admit to feeling more comfortable in that sort of environment, and might subsequently be more likely to show up than they would otherwise.
  - lmickh 13y ago
    I'm not looking for anything. Just defining how one might determine if PyLadies was actually discriminating instead of just making claims that were unrelated to discrimination. Even admitted that I don't how they work. Reading their page and seeing them in action are two very different things. I have not had any direct interaction and therefor made no judgement of them. If they are in fact that open then they are not discriminating.
- pekk 13y ago
  Thought experiment: what about Saudi women who want to learn Python? Starting a Python group for women only would be a legal necessity to serve those women in Saudi Arabia. It would not be discrimination at all. Now suppose we are in London, and there are women who want to learn Python but due to religion or upbringing would not be comfortable in mixed company. Neither of these cases is "discrimination" against anyone. It's not any kind of aggression at all. It's also not discrimination when there are women who feel intimidated by the main groups and want a group that is more explicitly friendly to women.
MartinCron 13y ago
Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way. It's so easy to see everything as a competitive zero-sum-game. So that anything that helps women must be hurting men, right? It's wrong, but the idea is out there. Sigh.

steveklabnik 13y ago

Good thing PyLadies doesn't, then! I'm sure they look forward to your support. > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! > > http://www.pyladies.com/

AgathaTheWitch 13y ago
"We are an international mentorship group with a focus on helping more women become active participants and leaders in the Python open-source community." "PyLadies also aims to provide a friendly support network for women" "Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate," toward the goals described above. The goals described above are discriminatory in a way with which I do not agree, hence my lack of support.