5 ms·

As a member of Python community, I hereby congratulate Ruby for joining the ranks of pretty-cool-but-not-so-hot-anymore technologies. There are years of Getting

by Xion 14y ago

As a member of Python community, I hereby congratulate Ruby for joining the ranks of pretty-cool-but-not-so-hot-anymore technologies. There are years of Getting Stuff Done ahead of you. Way to go!

shanelja 14y ago
I wonder how you fall in to these categories, for instance, Ruby and PHP were developed around the same time (though Rails obviously came later) yet Ruby is such a "cooler language" so it can't be due simply to age. I think a lot of it is Silicone Valley's attitude to being different to the rest of the world, the majority of sites are built in PHP? Sweet, let's go with something funky and different! It's a great attitude to have for creating cool new things, I suppose, but it feels like it's moving too fast for me to keep up, is Node.js not cool anymore? What about Backbone? Lua? what the hell is Hadoop? How about a new Lisp?
- doktrin 14y ago
  I don't think it's "just" SV. On the whole, IME, Ruby (and Rails by immediate extension) appears to be a little more popular in the US than in Europe. I can't speak to other developer communities. For instance, I was immediately struck upon visiting family in Norway that vanishingly few shops use Ruby, and surprisingly many use .NET. I had also just finished interviewing for an opportunity on mainland Europe for a shop that uses Perl as its production language.
  - arkitaip 14y ago
    There's also the question of population and total market size...
  - vidarh 14y ago
    Norways tech sector is small enough that it is severely dominated by entrenched interests with a Microsoft background, much more so than in larger countries. The places that tends to use Ruby tends to at least have started doing so when small, and the number of startups in Norway is vanishingly small simply because we're a small country. (I'm from Oslo, but moved one of the startups I co-founded to London 13 years ago...)
    - doktrin 14y ago
      Interesting. As a Norwegian who has never actually lived in Norway (although I have visited often and speak Norwegian) I would love to pick your brain about the tech scene there. My email is in my profile if you have a few moments to spare.
  - Ovid 14y ago
    There are actually tons of shops that use Perl here in Europe. It's quite popular, though it's not going to hit Java or C levels of popularity. I lived in London and there were always tons of Perl jobs there and here in Paris, I'm shocked to find out that there are far more Perl jobs than I expected. It also appears to be moderately popular in Germany. So yeah, Perl may also be "off the radar" for many people, but it's still a strong market. Interestingly I'm seeing Perl dev pay scales getting pushed up because because there was a rush of devs going to other languages a few years ago. Now there's a shortage of Perl devs but the code hasn't gone away.
    - kamaal 14y ago
      Curious to know how many new Perl projects are started these days, compared to something like say Python. Its not very interesting to be known as a Perl developer if all there is left to do is maintain legacy code.
      - doktrin 14y ago
        My hunch, based in part on a few single point observations as well as this thread, is that not too many new projects are using Perl. When I asked a prospective employer why they were using Perl, the answer was in effect that it was legacy from the late 90's. I never got the impression that this legacy was an onerous impediment, however. Given the scale at which they operate, switching languages & ecosystems would be costly - and (again, due to scale) they've built up a number of customized solutions using Perl that would be time consuming to port. IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late.
        kbenson 14y ago
        > IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late. I might, if I knew what your point was. There's just a vague implication that the language and it's ecosystem are substandard to Ruby and Python. Apparently you think it's self evident, so doesn't require explanation, but I don't feel that way, so I'm not sure what to address. Mind supplying some examples of what you feel Perl is lacking in comparison? To jump start it, I've been using Mojolicious[1] lately, and find it a dream to work in. And of course, being able to pull from CPAN is a plus. [1]: http://mojolicio.us/ http://mojolicio.us/
  - pimeys 14y ago
    Ruby and Rails seem to be very popular here in Berlin IT scene. Still PHP and Java are a bit more popular, but it's not so hard to find work if you're a good Ruby engineer. http://marsjobs.net/positions http://marsjobs.net/positions
    - kushti 13y ago
      What's about Scala community in Berlin?
- nathan_long 14y ago
  >> I think a lot of it is Silicone Valley's attitude to being different to the rest of the world, the majority of sites are built in PHP? Sweet, let's go with something funky and different! I don't think that's it. Personally, I switched from PHP to Ruby because 1) Ruby seemed like a great language and 2) I saw a lot of excitement about Rails and 3) it seemed like a marketable skill. But a few people had to decide #1 for #2 and #3 to happen. I think any new technology gets its initial hype because of some merits it has, even if the hype later gets out of hand.
- gngeal 13y ago
  "It's a great attitude to have for creating cool new things, I suppose, but it feels like it's moving too fast for me to keep up, is Node.js not cool anymore? What about Backbone? Lua? what the hell is Hadoop? How about a new Lisp?" As far as the last part is concerned, what about R7RS Small, and later R7RS Large?
diminish 14y ago
And as a member of the Ruby community, I welcome you to the conference drama club ;) don't forget, we were there first.
- shiftpgdn 14y ago
  I have to ask, what was the ruby conference drama?
  - Argorak 14y ago
    There was a presentation relating CouchDB and "Performance" in a sexual way some years ago.
    - coldtea 14y ago
      Sex! Mentioned in jest! Oh, the humanity! Aren't those conferences targeted at adults? Is there some assumption in english speaking countries that the average adult is offended when he hears about sex? Because it sure as hell doesn't hold true in most non-english speaking countries...
      - vidarh 13y ago
        I think the assumption generally is that some women will feel uncomfortable with a sex jokes in an audience where they tend to be a small minority. My experience as a man is that women in groups are at least as prone to telling dirty jokes as men, but I can understand that if you're one of a handful of women in a room full of men it might feel quite different.
        fencepost 13y ago
        As the IT guy in a variety of medical offices who's known for being pretty laid back, some of the discussions that have happened when I was in the room are filthy. Also, sometimes folks forget I'm in the room. The most memorable and amusing was the discussion by several women (some busty) of "[flopping them on the counter]", but there have also been discussions of men or parts thereof.
doktrin 14y ago
I think no longer being the "hotness" is, frankly, a blessing. Python appears to have thrived and has easily stomped Ruby when it comes to performing certain classes of Serious Work (TM), despite having been absolutely destroyed in the popularity contest war. I personally like Ruby, and I always have. I'm excited to see how the community evolves over the coming years, even as I work with it less and less (professionally, I am switching to Python).
- SkyMarshal 14y ago
  Python wasn't destroyed in the popularity contest war [1], only the trendiness contest war. [1]: http://www.langpop.com/ http://www.langpop.com/
  - astrodust 14y ago
    To put it in perspective, PBR and crappy t-shirts are still more popular than Python or Ruby. Popularity only matters to those seeking fame.
skrebbel 14y ago
As member of the programming community, I hereby welcome Python and Ruby to the ranks of technologies that people uniquely associate their identity to!
- parnas 14y ago
  every time I try to uniquely associate my identity with some technology or programming language, reality pulls the rug out from under me... i give up, perhaps it's time to invent my own in my zero minutes of spare time.
bpatrianakos 14y ago
Has it really joined those ranks? Maybe in Jeff Atwood's bubble Ruby isn't the new hotness anymore but I'm still seeing everyone and their dog gush about how awesome they are for ditching their old and busted language for Ruby. To be clear, I'm not saying Atwood uniquely lives in a bubble, we all do, and I don't mean it in a bad way. Just that maybe the people he's talking to feel that way but it's been my observation that the larger developer community is still all about Ruby for coolness' sake.
- Legion 13y ago
  Well, everyone is somewhere on the embrace-new-languages spectrum. It's clear that the people on the far edge of that spectrum have long moved on from Ruby. But there are still plenty of people further back. I'm sure we have years to come of stories of people switching to Ruby, just as we still see them with Python sometimes.

by Xion 14y ago

As a member of Python community, I hereby congratulate Ruby for joining the ranks of pretty-cool-but-not-so-hot-anymore technologies. There are years of Getting Stuff Done ahead of you. Way to go!

shanelja 14y ago

I wonder how you fall in to these categories, for instance, Ruby and PHP were developed around the same time (though Rails obviously came later) yet Ruby is such a "cooler language" so it can't be due simply to age. I think a lot of it is Silicone Valley's attitude to being different to the rest of the world, the majority of sites are built in PHP? Sweet, let's go with something funky and different! It's a great attitude to have for creating cool new things, I suppose, but it feels like it's moving too fast for me to keep up, is Node.js not cool anymore? What about Backbone? Lua? what the hell is Hadoop? How about a new Lisp?

doktrin 14y ago
I don't think it's "just" SV. On the whole, IME, Ruby (and Rails by immediate extension) appears to be a little more popular in the US than in Europe. I can't speak to other developer communities. For instance, I was immediately struck upon visiting family in Norway that vanishingly few shops use Ruby, and surprisingly many use .NET. I had also just finished interviewing for an opportunity on mainland Europe for a shop that uses Perl as its production language.
- arkitaip 14y ago
  There's also the question of population and total market size...
- vidarh 14y ago
  Norways tech sector is small enough that it is severely dominated by entrenched interests with a Microsoft background, much more so than in larger countries. The places that tends to use Ruby tends to at least have started doing so when small, and the number of startups in Norway is vanishingly small simply because we're a small country. (I'm from Oslo, but moved one of the startups I co-founded to London 13 years ago...)
  - doktrin 14y ago
    Interesting. As a Norwegian who has never actually lived in Norway (although I have visited often and speak Norwegian) I would love to pick your brain about the tech scene there. My email is in my profile if you have a few moments to spare.
- Ovid 14y ago
  There are actually tons of shops that use Perl here in Europe. It's quite popular, though it's not going to hit Java or C levels of popularity. I lived in London and there were always tons of Perl jobs there and here in Paris, I'm shocked to find out that there are far more Perl jobs than I expected. It also appears to be moderately popular in Germany. So yeah, Perl may also be "off the radar" for many people, but it's still a strong market. Interestingly I'm seeing Perl dev pay scales getting pushed up because because there was a rush of devs going to other languages a few years ago. Now there's a shortage of Perl devs but the code hasn't gone away.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    Curious to know how many new Perl projects are started these days, compared to something like say Python. Its not very interesting to be known as a Perl developer if all there is left to do is maintain legacy code.
    - doktrin 14y ago
      My hunch, based in part on a few single point observations as well as this thread, is that not too many new projects are using Perl. When I asked a prospective employer why they were using Perl, the answer was in effect that it was legacy from the late 90's. I never got the impression that this legacy was an onerous impediment, however. Given the scale at which they operate, switching languages & ecosystems would be costly - and (again, due to scale) they've built up a number of customized solutions using Perl that would be time consuming to port. IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late.
      - kbenson 14y ago
        > IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late. I might, if I knew what your point was. There's just a vague implication that the language and it's ecosystem are substandard to Ruby and Python. Apparently you think it's self evident, so doesn't require explanation, but I don't feel that way, so I'm not sure what to address. Mind supplying some examples of what you feel Perl is lacking in comparison? To jump start it, I've been using Mojolicious[1] lately, and find it a dream to work in. And of course, being able to pull from CPAN is a plus. [1]: http://mojolicio.us/ http://mojolicio.us/
- pimeys 14y ago
  Ruby and Rails seem to be very popular here in Berlin IT scene. Still PHP and Java are a bit more popular, but it's not so hard to find work if you're a good Ruby engineer. http://marsjobs.net/positions http://marsjobs.net/positions
  - kushti 13y ago
    What's about Scala community in Berlin?
nathan_long 14y ago
>> I think a lot of it is Silicone Valley's attitude to being different to the rest of the world, the majority of sites are built in PHP? Sweet, let's go with something funky and different! I don't think that's it. Personally, I switched from PHP to Ruby because 1) Ruby seemed like a great language and 2) I saw a lot of excitement about Rails and 3) it seemed like a marketable skill. But a few people had to decide #1 for #2 and #3 to happen. I think any new technology gets its initial hype because of some merits it has, even if the hype later gets out of hand.
gngeal 13y ago
"It's a great attitude to have for creating cool new things, I suppose, but it feels like it's moving too fast for me to keep up, is Node.js not cool anymore? What about Backbone? Lua? what the hell is Hadoop? How about a new Lisp?" As far as the last part is concerned, what about R7RS Small, and later R7RS Large?

diminish 14y ago

And as a member of the Ruby community, I welcome you to the conference drama club ;) don't forget, we were there first.

shiftpgdn 14y ago
I have to ask, what was the ruby conference drama?
- Argorak 14y ago
  There was a presentation relating CouchDB and "Performance" in a sexual way some years ago.
  - coldtea 14y ago
    Sex! Mentioned in jest! Oh, the humanity! Aren't those conferences targeted at adults? Is there some assumption in english speaking countries that the average adult is offended when he hears about sex? Because it sure as hell doesn't hold true in most non-english speaking countries...
    - vidarh 13y ago
      I think the assumption generally is that some women will feel uncomfortable with a sex jokes in an audience where they tend to be a small minority. My experience as a man is that women in groups are at least as prone to telling dirty jokes as men, but I can understand that if you're one of a handful of women in a room full of men it might feel quite different.
      - fencepost 13y ago
        As the IT guy in a variety of medical offices who's known for being pretty laid back, some of the discussions that have happened when I was in the room are filthy. Also, sometimes folks forget I'm in the room. The most memorable and amusing was the discussion by several women (some busty) of "[flopping them on the counter]", but there have also been discussions of men or parts thereof.

doktrin 14y ago

I think no longer being the "hotness" is, frankly, a blessing. Python appears to have thrived and has easily stomped Ruby when it comes to performing certain classes of Serious Work (TM), despite having been absolutely destroyed in the popularity contest war. I personally like Ruby, and I always have. I'm excited to see how the community evolves over the coming years, even as I work with it less and less (professionally, I am switching to Python).

SkyMarshal 14y ago
Python wasn't destroyed in the popularity contest war [1], only the trendiness contest war. [1]: http://www.langpop.com/ http://www.langpop.com/
- astrodust 14y ago
  To put it in perspective, PBR and crappy t-shirts are still more popular than Python or Ruby. Popularity only matters to those seeking fame.

skrebbel 14y ago

As member of the programming community, I hereby welcome Python and Ruby to the ranks of technologies that people uniquely associate their identity to!

parnas 14y ago
every time I try to uniquely associate my identity with some technology or programming language, reality pulls the rug out from under me... i give up, perhaps it's time to invent my own in my zero minutes of spare time.

bpatrianakos 14y ago

Has it really joined those ranks? Maybe in Jeff Atwood's bubble Ruby isn't the new hotness anymore but I'm still seeing everyone and their dog gush about how awesome they are for ditching their old and busted language for Ruby. To be clear, I'm not saying Atwood uniquely lives in a bubble, we all do, and I don't mean it in a bad way. Just that maybe the people he's talking to feel that way but it's been my observation that the larger developer community is still all about Ruby for coolness' sake.

Legion 13y ago
Well, everyone is somewhere on the embrace-new-languages spectrum. It's clear that the people on the far edge of that spectrum have long moved on from Ruby. But there are still plenty of people further back. I'm sure we have years to come of stories of people switching to Ruby, just as we still see them with Python sometimes.