9 ms·

How did my Google Reader logo become the "default"?

119 points by indiekid 14y ago

slg 14y ago
I find it a little ironic that the author is complaining (or at least unapprovingly noting) that most of the image's use violates the original license considering the image so closely resembles the official one. You shouldn't create a remix of an image and then bemoan the remix culture when people use your image.
- klez 14y ago
  The logo he created is not a remix of the original one (if you look in the post they are different), but it's just similar. The problem, as I see it, is that the use of his logo is subject to a license that, in the cases he presents, is not respected. This has less to do with the remix culture and more with the fact that some journalists blindly take images from google image search without verifying licenses and original authors.
  - laumars 14y ago
    I'd wager that those journalists just pulled the file from Wikipedia (as so many journalists seem to these days). So the real question is why did Wikipedia add the wrong logo? > The logo he created is not a remix of the original one (if you look in the post they are different), but it's just similar. It's still derivative work though.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - criley 14y ago
      Is it? I posit that both logos are siblings, and they are both derived from the RSS logo itself -- the design of which Google had no part of. In fact, the original feed icon that both icons are derivative of was designed and implemented by Mozilla originally.
    - SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
      >It's still derivative work though. Are you a lawyer? Seems like quite a definitive statement when, from what I can see, it's not at all clear that it's a derivative work in the copyright sense. It may simply be a derivative work of the standard RSS logo, color-shifted to be similar to the Google RSS logo. As far as TRADEMARK law is concerned, it's absolutely related to the Google logo. But we're talking COPYRIGHT, and just making something look like something else doesn't violate a copyright. But IANAL either.
      - laumars 14y ago
        I take your point. Fair enough :)
  - slg 14y ago
    I agree with your second point, but the first is debatable. Is there some legal definition of remix that this doesn't fit? Either way, it would be near impossible to argue that the author's logo was not based off the Google logo (assuming the Google one was created first).
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- freehunter 14y ago
  Ironic maybe, but I don't think it's inappropriate. He created a version of the logo that fit his needs because a version that fit his needs didn't exist. It's not much different than the custom icons people make for desktop re-skinning (GIS for "desktop skin custom icons"). The point he's making is that his custom icon is now being reused by many different organizations rather than the official logo, and not only that but his custom icon is being attributed to Google (contrary to his license). AFAIK, re-imagining a Google logo is not against Google's license.
- indiekid 14y ago
  Technically a "remix" would be defined as taking an original image, and making changes to that specific image. In this case, I saw their favicon (16x16) and created a derivative work that was high resolution. I'm not complaining per se by any means...I really could care less. My statements on the license were to show that these derivations and uses might happen without permission, which they did in this case.
joenathan 14y ago
I don't fully understand, the official Google Reader logo looks exactly like the "unofficial" logo, so did Google copy the "unofficial" logo or was it a copy of Google's? This isn't addressed in the blog post.
- jneal 14y ago
  The official logo came first and is the more "blocky" or "3D" of the two. The author created his version later, which somehow got picked up as the "official" logo according to Wikipedia. Thus news sites started using this "official" logo believing Wikipedia albeit incorrect. I'm not a lawyer, but the author's image is in fact a derivative work of the original, and as such I'm not sure there's much he can do in this case. If it were an entirely unique creation that was being used without permission you'd have more options.
  - rhplus 14y ago
    Did the Google version definitely come first? Looking through Google Reader blog, all I'm seeing is the textual "Google Reader Labs" logo with the chemistry beaker, until the 3D one appears in a desktop widget in May 2009. The OP's Flicker page is date June 2008. Anyone have earlier examples of the Google version? http://googlereader.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-reader-on-your-google-desktop.html http://googlereader.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-reader-on-yo... http://www.flickr.com/photos/indiekid/2551308352/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/indiekid/2551308352/
    - dangrossman 14y ago
      Here's one from 4 months earlier: http://bonte-pierre.blogspot.com/2008/02/google-reader-for-mobile-stop-wasting.html http://bonte-pierre.blogspot.com/2008/02/google-reader-for-m... Do a Google Image Search for "google reader" and use the Search Tools button to restrict the date to before June 2008.
    - indiekid 14y ago
      My version was based on Google's 16x16 favicon. It was basically a scaled up version of that. Their "blocky" version did exist before, but mine was specifically a take on their favicon.
notatoad 14y ago
That's not your google reader logo. You made a high-res version of the google reader logo, which was only ever officially available in low-res sizes. People who wanted a high-res version of the reader logo used your high-res version, because it existed.
- indiekid 14y ago
  Sure. The "low res" version was 16x16, as it was the favicon. But what my post is referring to is that it was my scaled up version of the 16x16 icon that got picked up by the press, and not the official logo.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
shyn3 14y ago
State of journalism in 2013.
bbx 14y ago
It's always good practice for a company/product to provide easy access to its logo, in different formats (EPS and PNG at least) along with some guidelines, through a dedicated page so that Google can index it easily so it eventually becomes the first search result (both in Web and Image search). It's also good practice for designers who need a logo to make a Web search and not an Image search, or directly visit the company/product website and bypass Google to find it. When searching for "google reader logo", the first result is the product itself, and the second one is the Wikipedia page logo. The official blog doesn't provide the logo either.
smackfu 14y ago
Is there any way to see who actually uploaded the logo to Wikipedia? I can't figure out a way to proper history on this page. It has an edit saying the actual logo was uploaded in Feb 2012, but the page dates to 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Google_Reader_logo.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Google_Reader_logo.png
- Zirro 14y ago
  Under "File History", User column: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Adys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Adys
  - smackfu 14y ago
    Right, but they uploaded the file in 2012, and the history for that page goes back to 2010. So did the page for the logo file exist before the logo file? I think not. Maybe Wikipedia deletes copyrighted images or something?
    - Zirro 14y ago
      I see. You are correct, I found this template: "The previous version(s) of this file are non-free. These older revisions are no longer being used in articles, and therefore fail the Wikipedia non-free content criteria. The current version will not be deleted, only its previous revisions." in the version version of the page that existed before the current one. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Google_Reader_logo.png&oldid=502005511 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Google_Reader... I actually find it a bit surprising that they delete the information (username, date, dimensions) related to the previous revisions, and not just the file itself in such situations.
- lwf 14y ago
  The deleted image consisted of a stylized "Google" logo combined with "reader" rendered in the Google product font. Administrators on the English Wikipedia can see the deleted logo at: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=File%3AGoogle+Reader+logo.png&file=elixwi6nq8btwoywxbdnof2wbck6y8l.png&token=03b627623e293656a4e7c253368c34f7%2B%5C https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&... In any case, the permissions on the current file have been updated and the attribution corrected.
salman89 14y ago
Are there any services that keep track of republishing without attribution of artists' work (images, videos, writings, etc)?
rm999 14y ago
From wikipedia: >For copyright protection to attach to a later, allegedly derivative work, it must display some originality of its own. It cannot be a rote, uncreative variation on the earlier, underlying work. The latter work must contain sufficient new expression, over and above that embodied in the earlier work for the latter work to satisfy copyright law’s requirement of originality. It seems to me that he created a rote variation; if so his work isn't protected by copyright, the license he attached to his image is irrelevant, and google owns the image. IANAL and could be wrong, any correction/clarification from someone who is familiar with American copyright law would be great. edit: to be clear, my point is I don't think OP had the right to attach any sort of license on the image, even a creative commons one, because google owns the copyright. Likewise, I don't think he owns the right to attribution.
- indiekid 14y ago
  It should be noted that I actually never claimed a copyright, nor copyright protection on this. Creative Commons isn't a copyright. I'm also not mad about the uses of this image. I moreso just wanted to call out the fact that there was no attribution happening, as requested through the CC license.
  - rm999 14y ago
    Don't you need a copyright to license it?
  - klez 14y ago
    IANAL but I think the moment you put a license on it you claimed copyright. IIRC you don't have rights to license someone else's creation without consent
    - reeses 14y ago
      YANAL. It was copyrighted the moment it came into existence as his work.
      - 14y ago
webjunkie 14y ago
I thought you cannot just change an already given Creative Commons license just when you want?

119 points by indiekid 14y ago

slg 14y ago

I find it a little ironic that the author is complaining (or at least unapprovingly noting) that most of the image's use violates the original license considering the image so closely resembles the official one. You shouldn't create a remix of an image and then bemoan the remix culture when people use your image.

klez 14y ago
The logo he created is not a remix of the original one (if you look in the post they are different), but it's just similar. The problem, as I see it, is that the use of his logo is subject to a license that, in the cases he presents, is not respected. This has less to do with the remix culture and more with the fact that some journalists blindly take images from google image search without verifying licenses and original authors.
- laumars 14y ago
  I'd wager that those journalists just pulled the file from Wikipedia (as so many journalists seem to these days). So the real question is why did Wikipedia add the wrong logo? > The logo he created is not a remix of the original one (if you look in the post they are different), but it's just similar. It's still derivative work though.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - criley 14y ago
    Is it? I posit that both logos are siblings, and they are both derived from the RSS logo itself -- the design of which Google had no part of. In fact, the original feed icon that both icons are derivative of was designed and implemented by Mozilla originally.
  - SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
    >It's still derivative work though. Are you a lawyer? Seems like quite a definitive statement when, from what I can see, it's not at all clear that it's a derivative work in the copyright sense. It may simply be a derivative work of the standard RSS logo, color-shifted to be similar to the Google RSS logo. As far as TRADEMARK law is concerned, it's absolutely related to the Google logo. But we're talking COPYRIGHT, and just making something look like something else doesn't violate a copyright. But IANAL either.
    - laumars 14y ago
      I take your point. Fair enough :)
- slg 14y ago
  I agree with your second point, but the first is debatable. Is there some legal definition of remix that this doesn't fit? Either way, it would be near impossible to argue that the author's logo was not based off the Google logo (assuming the Google one was created first).
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
freehunter 14y ago
Ironic maybe, but I don't think it's inappropriate. He created a version of the logo that fit his needs because a version that fit his needs didn't exist. It's not much different than the custom icons people make for desktop re-skinning (GIS for "desktop skin custom icons"). The point he's making is that his custom icon is now being reused by many different organizations rather than the official logo, and not only that but his custom icon is being attributed to Google (contrary to his license). AFAIK, re-imagining a Google logo is not against Google's license.
indiekid 14y ago
Technically a "remix" would be defined as taking an original image, and making changes to that specific image. In this case, I saw their favicon (16x16) and created a derivative work that was high resolution. I'm not complaining per se by any means...I really could care less. My statements on the license were to show that these derivations and uses might happen without permission, which they did in this case.

joenathan 14y ago

I don't fully understand, the official Google Reader logo looks exactly like the "unofficial" logo, so did Google copy the "unofficial" logo or was it a copy of Google's? This isn't addressed in the blog post.

jneal 14y ago
The official logo came first and is the more "blocky" or "3D" of the two. The author created his version later, which somehow got picked up as the "official" logo according to Wikipedia. Thus news sites started using this "official" logo believing Wikipedia albeit incorrect. I'm not a lawyer, but the author's image is in fact a derivative work of the original, and as such I'm not sure there's much he can do in this case. If it were an entirely unique creation that was being used without permission you'd have more options.
- rhplus 14y ago
  Did the Google version definitely come first? Looking through Google Reader blog, all I'm seeing is the textual "Google Reader Labs" logo with the chemistry beaker, until the 3D one appears in a desktop widget in May 2009. The OP's Flicker page is date June 2008. Anyone have earlier examples of the Google version? http://googlereader.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-reader-on-your-google-desktop.html http://googlereader.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-reader-on-yo... http://www.flickr.com/photos/indiekid/2551308352/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/indiekid/2551308352/
  - dangrossman 14y ago
    Here's one from 4 months earlier: http://bonte-pierre.blogspot.com/2008/02/google-reader-for-mobile-stop-wasting.html http://bonte-pierre.blogspot.com/2008/02/google-reader-for-m... Do a Google Image Search for "google reader" and use the Search Tools button to restrict the date to before June 2008.
  - indiekid 14y ago
    My version was based on Google's 16x16 favicon. It was basically a scaled up version of that. Their "blocky" version did exist before, but mine was specifically a take on their favicon.

notatoad 14y ago

That's not your google reader logo. You made a high-res version of the google reader logo, which was only ever officially available in low-res sizes. People who wanted a high-res version of the reader logo used your high-res version, because it existed.

indiekid 14y ago
Sure. The "low res" version was 16x16, as it was the favicon. But what my post is referring to is that it was my scaled up version of the 16x16 icon that got picked up by the press, and not the official logo.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

shyn3 14y ago

State of journalism in 2013.

bbx 14y ago

It's always good practice for a company/product to provide easy access to its logo, in different formats (EPS and PNG at least) along with some guidelines, through a dedicated page so that Google can index it easily so it eventually becomes the first search result (both in Web and Image search). It's also good practice for designers who need a logo to make a Web search and not an Image search, or directly visit the company/product website and bypass Google to find it. When searching for "google reader logo", the first result is the product itself, and the second one is the Wikipedia page logo. The official blog doesn't provide the logo either.

smackfu 14y ago

Is there any way to see who actually uploaded the logo to Wikipedia? I can't figure out a way to proper history on this page. It has an edit saying the actual logo was uploaded in Feb 2012, but the page dates to 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Google_Reader_logo.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Google_Reader_logo.png

Zirro 14y ago
Under "File History", User column: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Adys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Adys
- smackfu 14y ago
  Right, but they uploaded the file in 2012, and the history for that page goes back to 2010. So did the page for the logo file exist before the logo file? I think not. Maybe Wikipedia deletes copyrighted images or something?
  - Zirro 14y ago
    I see. You are correct, I found this template: "The previous version(s) of this file are non-free. These older revisions are no longer being used in articles, and therefore fail the Wikipedia non-free content criteria. The current version will not be deleted, only its previous revisions." in the version version of the page that existed before the current one. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Google_Reader_logo.png&oldid=502005511 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Google_Reader... I actually find it a bit surprising that they delete the information (username, date, dimensions) related to the previous revisions, and not just the file itself in such situations.
lwf 14y ago
The deleted image consisted of a stylized "Google" logo combined with "reader" rendered in the Google product font. Administrators on the English Wikipedia can see the deleted logo at: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=File%3AGoogle+Reader+logo.png&file=elixwi6nq8btwoywxbdnof2wbck6y8l.png&token=03b627623e293656a4e7c253368c34f7%2B%5C https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&... In any case, the permissions on the current file have been updated and the attribution corrected.

salman89 14y ago

Are there any services that keep track of republishing without attribution of artists' work (images, videos, writings, etc)?

rm999 14y ago

From wikipedia: >For copyright protection to attach to a later, allegedly derivative work, it must display some originality of its own. It cannot be a rote, uncreative variation on the earlier, underlying work. The latter work must contain sufficient new expression, over and above that embodied in the earlier work for the latter work to satisfy copyright law’s requirement of originality. It seems to me that he created a rote variation; if so his work isn't protected by copyright, the license he attached to his image is irrelevant, and google owns the image. IANAL and could be wrong, any correction/clarification from someone who is familiar with American copyright law would be great. edit: to be clear, my point is I don't think OP had the right to attach any sort of license on the image, even a creative commons one, because google owns the copyright. Likewise, I don't think he owns the right to attribution.

indiekid 14y ago
It should be noted that I actually never claimed a copyright, nor copyright protection on this. Creative Commons isn't a copyright. I'm also not mad about the uses of this image. I moreso just wanted to call out the fact that there was no attribution happening, as requested through the CC license.
- rm999 14y ago
  Don't you need a copyright to license it?
- klez 14y ago
  IANAL but I think the moment you put a license on it you claimed copyright. IIRC you don't have rights to license someone else's creation without consent
  - reeses 14y ago
    YANAL. It was copyrighted the moment it came into existence as his work.
    - 14y ago

webjunkie 14y ago

I thought you cannot just change an already given Creative Commons license just when you want?