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It's a sane move if you want to discourage the culture that Adria is encouraging. Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though.

by josh-j 14y ago

jasonlotito 14y ago
What culture is that? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct? * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved? (http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...) Are we really arguing that people should keep silent when things like this happen? When a rule is violated? That they should only respond after it's taken place? Is that what people are really asking for?
- josh-j 14y ago
  I don't think assuming or mentioning negative talking points in the form of a question is a productive way to have a discussion.
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    So then what culture is she encouraging? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved Those are the two things she did. Call people out who broke a rule. She also went to PyCon organizers to resolve it. So, what culture is she encouraging, and why would we want to discourage it?
    - Domenic_S 14y ago
      She's encouraging an internet lynch mob, and that's a culture most communities actively discourage.
      - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
        She @-replied pycon staff. Compare that to the HN and Reddit communities out for Adria's head.
        corresation 14y ago
        Her initial response was a twitter message with the pycon hashtag and a picture of the "culprits". It was demanding a lynch mob resolution. She never directly replied to or messaged pycon staff, though she had the wherewithal to search up the code of conduct.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        Oh shit. She didn't file the HA-RASS-401A form. She deserves everything she got. > She never directly replied to or messaged pycon staff That's not true. At all.
        corresation 14y ago
        She didn't file the HA-RASS-401A form. She deserves everything she got. What did she "get"? If you do something publicly, you are open for public criticism. That's life. However few would debate that it is utter hubris to use social media to demand a lynchmob response to a relatively mild social faux pas (which is 100% bullying behavior. Ala "I have 9000 twitter followers so you'll see who is the boss"). I don't blame her for the guy getting fired (that's on his shitty employer that knee jerk responds to something asinine), nor should anyone else, but I think the original activities were much more egregious and socially questionable than making a dongle joke.
    - josh-j 14y ago
      Personally, and I think this might be the case with most people here, I'm most worried by the public shaming of the two individuals. Them being kicked out of PyCon isn't as much a concern to me. I think the culture that she's implicitly promoting is ultimately a suspicious and hostile one where there is no principle of charity but instead there's the inverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity). And not by the fact that she reported it to PyCon organizers, but by the fact that she then escalated it to the public. In this instance, I think she should have kept their identities anonymous in her tweets and blog post. There are instances where I can imagine revealing their identities would be the right thing to do, but this doesn't come close to it by my judgement (for all that's worth).
    - eropple 14y ago
      I am no fan of the behavior ascribed to these guys, but the PyCon code of conduct also says no "harassing photography or recording" and, in my book, her blasting a photograph to multiple thousands of followers is an intentional invocation of a shitstorm to attempt to harm them. PyCon also is on record as not being down with the "public shaming" thing, too; see their policies regarding it. The two guys are unprofessional assholes. 100% agreed. But by my lights, she is too.
- katbyte 14y ago
  no one is arguing about that, it seems to be more the culture of publicly shaming people for things that are well below the level of what should be.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
djcapelis 14y ago
> Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though To be clear, SendGrid is her employer and that's exactly who sergiotapia sent an e-mail to saying he was going to boycott and recommended that others do the same.
- josh-j 14y ago
  I'm clear on that. This whole issue is deeply entwined with philosophy which makes it all a bit amorphous. From one perspective, you could argue that it's moral to boycott SendGrid if it leads to "positive" consequences, for example.
rmrfrmrf 14y ago
"We're not choosing your company because we believe in the right for men to tell dick jokes." I'd quickly e-mail back: "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

It's a sane move if you want to discourage the culture that Adria is encouraging. Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though.

by josh-j 14y ago

It's a sane move if you want to discourage the culture that Adria is encouraging. Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though.

jasonlotito 14y ago

What culture is that? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct? * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved? (http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...) Are we really arguing that people should keep silent when things like this happen? When a rule is violated? That they should only respond after it's taken place? Is that what people are really asking for?

josh-j 14y ago
I don't think assuming or mentioning negative talking points in the form of a question is a productive way to have a discussion.
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  So then what culture is she encouraging? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved Those are the two things she did. Call people out who broke a rule. She also went to PyCon organizers to resolve it. So, what culture is she encouraging, and why would we want to discourage it?
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    She's encouraging an internet lynch mob, and that's a culture most communities actively discourage.
    - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
      She @-replied pycon staff. Compare that to the HN and Reddit communities out for Adria's head.
      - corresation 14y ago
        Her initial response was a twitter message with the pycon hashtag and a picture of the "culprits". It was demanding a lynch mob resolution. She never directly replied to or messaged pycon staff, though she had the wherewithal to search up the code of conduct.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        Oh shit. She didn't file the HA-RASS-401A form. She deserves everything she got. > She never directly replied to or messaged pycon staff That's not true. At all.
        corresation 14y ago
        She didn't file the HA-RASS-401A form. She deserves everything she got. What did she "get"? If you do something publicly, you are open for public criticism. That's life. However few would debate that it is utter hubris to use social media to demand a lynchmob response to a relatively mild social faux pas (which is 100% bullying behavior. Ala "I have 9000 twitter followers so you'll see who is the boss"). I don't blame her for the guy getting fired (that's on his shitty employer that knee jerk responds to something asinine), nor should anyone else, but I think the original activities were much more egregious and socially questionable than making a dongle joke.
  - josh-j 14y ago
    Personally, and I think this might be the case with most people here, I'm most worried by the public shaming of the two individuals. Them being kicked out of PyCon isn't as much a concern to me. I think the culture that she's implicitly promoting is ultimately a suspicious and hostile one where there is no principle of charity but instead there's the inverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity). And not by the fact that she reported it to PyCon organizers, but by the fact that she then escalated it to the public. In this instance, I think she should have kept their identities anonymous in her tweets and blog post. There are instances where I can imagine revealing their identities would be the right thing to do, but this doesn't come close to it by my judgement (for all that's worth).
  - eropple 14y ago
    I am no fan of the behavior ascribed to these guys, but the PyCon code of conduct also says no "harassing photography or recording" and, in my book, her blasting a photograph to multiple thousands of followers is an intentional invocation of a shitstorm to attempt to harm them. PyCon also is on record as not being down with the "public shaming" thing, too; see their policies regarding it. The two guys are unprofessional assholes. 100% agreed. But by my lights, she is too.
katbyte 14y ago
no one is arguing about that, it seems to be more the culture of publicly shaming people for things that are well below the level of what should be.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

djcapelis 14y ago

> Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though To be clear, SendGrid is her employer and that's exactly who sergiotapia sent an e-mail to saying he was going to boycott and recommended that others do the same.

josh-j 14y ago
I'm clear on that. This whole issue is deeply entwined with philosophy which makes it all a bit amorphous. From one perspective, you could argue that it's moral to boycott SendGrid if it leads to "positive" consequences, for example.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago

"We're not choosing your company because we believe in the right for men to tell dick jokes." I'd quickly e-mail back: "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."