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Well, programming is not always easy. I felt that kind of frustation when I tried for the first time almost every library/programming language that I'd worked

Well, programming is not always easy. I felt that kind of frustation when I tried for the first time almost every library/programming language that I'd worked with, either with java, backbone, coldfusion, rails... Trying and researching things is always part of the process, we can't run away from that.

mootothemax 14y ago
Trying and researching things is always part of the process, we can't run away from that. You're right: there will always be a learning curve, whatever is being learnt. I think the problem with Ember is that it makes the opposite claims, and fails to deliver, only because the documentation is lacking.
- __herson__ 14y ago
  Yes, I meant that when I start to learn thing like java and rails, everybody said that these product were easier than "x", but I didn't find them that way.
glanch 14y ago
Just because it's always been that way doesn't mean it has to be. If I'm running Ember, today I'm seeing this post and my takeaway is "we need to create a fool-proof quickstart hello world tutorial and make it readily visible to first-timers ASAP", not "this guy is a dick, let's ignore him".
trolley 14y ago
> Well, programming is not always easy. Nobody is saying that it is. OP's title was directly in response to the ember.js homepage (where it says "GETTING STARTED WITH EMBER.JS IS EASY."). S/he encountered some (pretty understandable) frustration and pointed out a few major shortfalls in ember's documentation, before asking for assistance; that's not at all running away from "the process". Waving away legitimate (non-trolling) complaints in a dismissive way is pretty condescending, and not at all helpful to the main issue.
mikeash 14y ago
It's far easier to start from a basic working shell that you can tweak than it is to build something from zero. Plenty of environments manage to pull off that basic working shell just fine. If you make a new app project in Xcode, the result builds and runs out of the box. If you make a new Android app project, the result builds and runs out of the box. I can try out Python code immediately after typing "python" at the command line. Programming is inherently hard, but there's still a vast gulf between necessary and unnecessary difficulty. The problems here are solidly in the "unnecessary" category.
Gravityloss 14y ago
It probably takes a huge amount of work to make something easy to use. Look at Go.

mootothemax 14y ago

Trying and researching things is always part of the process, we can't run away from that. You're right: there will always be a learning curve, whatever is being learnt. I think the problem with Ember is that it makes the opposite claims, and fails to deliver, only because the documentation is lacking.

__herson__ 14y ago
Yes, I meant that when I start to learn thing like java and rails, everybody said that these product were easier than "x", but I didn't find them that way.

glanch 14y ago

Just because it's always been that way doesn't mean it has to be. If I'm running Ember, today I'm seeing this post and my takeaway is "we need to create a fool-proof quickstart hello world tutorial and make it readily visible to first-timers ASAP", not "this guy is a dick, let's ignore him".

trolley 14y ago

> Well, programming is not always easy. Nobody is saying that it is. OP's title was directly in response to the ember.js homepage (where it says "GETTING STARTED WITH EMBER.JS IS EASY."). S/he encountered some (pretty understandable) frustration and pointed out a few major shortfalls in ember's documentation, before asking for assistance; that's not at all running away from "the process". Waving away legitimate (non-trolling) complaints in a dismissive way is pretty condescending, and not at all helpful to the main issue.

mikeash 14y ago

It's far easier to start from a basic working shell that you can tweak than it is to build something from zero. Plenty of environments manage to pull off that basic working shell just fine. If you make a new app project in Xcode, the result builds and runs out of the box. If you make a new Android app project, the result builds and runs out of the box. I can try out Python code immediately after typing "python" at the command line. Programming is inherently hard, but there's still a vast gulf between necessary and unnecessary difficulty. The problems here are solidly in the "unnecessary" category.

Gravityloss 14y ago

It probably takes a huge amount of work to make something easy to use. Look at Go.