5 ms·

Cards Against Humanity is irrelevant to the issue. Also it's not about being puritanical and easily offended. Being a male geek/dork/nerd/outcast in school doe

by colabug 14y ago

Cards Against Humanity is irrelevant to the issue. Also it's not about being puritanical and easily offended. Being a male geek/dork/nerd/outcast in school doesn't excuse behavior that causes a hostile, sexualized, or otherwise unwelcoming environment. I, a female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you mention, yet I came out mature. You claim that male engineers (which you referred to as neckbeards) just need to be told that their behavior isn't OK and that everything will work out fine. You know what, I've tried that approach many, many times and it always backfires. The first reaction is quite similar to what you have above. Blame the person for being oversensitive and blowing things out of proportion. Then other defensive reactions ranging from yelling to ostracizing the female from the group follow. Rarely, after lots of back and forth emails and other draining communications (where I have to do tons of research in order to educate them about male privilege and other concepts), the issue is resolved. This successful resolution has happened maybe three times in my career. Guys, if you are faced with a complaint that something was sexist, not cool, etc., please, don't let your first reaction be the defensive reaction we see all the time. Take time, think it over, ask for more information so that you can understand her position. You might just find an opportunity to grow as a person.

ianschenck 14y ago
I still don't see how "large dongle" is sexist. I'm glad you take the time to re-educate those around you. It's probably the hardest thing to do, but ultimately the best way forward for everyone. Maybe I'm overly optimistic on the ability of education though. What I find really suspect is her feeling like and calling herself a hero. Her reference to herself as "Joan of Arc". Also going public immediately. I have been, more than once in my previous career, in a situation where a female engineer was actually in a real, abusive situation. I handled these situations "by the book". At one point I was asked by HR if I wanted to know the outcome. Of course I said "NO, but please let me know when she is doing better." I can't imagine feeling like a "hero". These were absolutely terrible experiences for me. I never sought out back slapping. I did seek out re-assurance from my father (also one of these god-awful male engineer chauvinistic pigs), and he was supportive. I can't even imagine going public with something like this. Something just strikes me as completely wrong. And if you're going to complain about offensive public comments, don't post publicly offensive pictures with racial overtones. Sorry, it is relevant. It demonstrates a double standard.
- colabug 14y ago
  It creates a sexualized environment, here's a good article: http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-topic-at-conferences-keeping-it-women-friendly/ http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-... It's hard to understand the "hero" feeling unless you've been quiet and avoided speaking out on similar (and often bigger) events. It feels good to stand up for your fellow females and community, even if you get negative public attention for it. I think more things big and small should be addressed so that it never leads to a "real" abusive environment again (As an aside, you don't get to decide what is a "real, abusive situation").
  - loudcode 14y ago
    Who decides what's the real abusive situation? I suspect the victim. It's not possible for a third person to objectively know, it can only be guessed in which case some kind of "decision" is necessary. Sorry, but what is a bystander to do? You are upset because he decided something was abusive and acted. I guess you would be happier with inaction? I don't understand.
    - colabug 14y ago
      Who says I am upset? I wasn't making any comment or judgment on his action or inaction in a particular past situation. If he helped someone fight abuse, I'm all for that! My aside was about the danger and power of bystanders picking and choosing what is real abuse. In this case it was obvious that something needed to be done. Great. However, if it isn't obvious or seems insignificant to a bystander, that doesn't make it less real for the victim. There was an implied judgment that this situation couldn't constitute "real abuse."
  - ianschenck 14y ago
    Hey, sorry. I didn't mean to write "real, abusive situation". I meant "really abusive situation", as in "very abusive situation". It appears I cannot correct it. I was tired. Having a discussion with folks like you requires tiring surgical precision with rhetoric. It's interesting that given the two possible interpretations, you picked the most offensive. You should be careful with that - not everyone out there is oblivious and unsympathetic to the problems facing women and underlying currents of a male-dominated society.
jorgenev 14y ago
> I, a female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you mention, yet I came out mature. Perhaps you should try being less insufferable. The reason why no one should ever give in to this women in tech nonsense is that because the complaints are mostly just a projection of the complainer's own social awkwardness -it is easier to blame other people, and to join causes that attribute your (social) difficulties to things other than yourself. If one complaint is resolved, they will just dream up another -because the content of the complaint is not important to them, it is the act of complaining that sustains them.
- colabug 14y ago
  Can you please explain why you have declared me insufferable? Surely it couldn't be the simple act of sharing my view and expressing a differing option based on my own experiences with sexism and victim blaming. This is classic derailing: "You Just Enjoy Being Offended" http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-google-cache-reconstruction/#enjoyit http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-goo... P.S. It always warms my heart to hear phrases like "women in tech nonsense."
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - truthtacular 14y ago
    Awesome site!
antihero 14y ago
Forking and dongle jokes are benign. Unless you are basically a mormon, I'm not sure how being a woman gives you a "right" to be offended by something like this.
- colabug 14y ago
  Check out this blog, does a great job of explaining the frustrations of subtle sexism. "You, person who told me to lighten up, saw one little thing. It didn't seem like a big deal, did it? One little line! One joke! One comment! But it's not just one thing to me: it's one of thousands that I've had to endure since I was old enough to be told that 'X is for boys!' It's probably not even the first thing I've had to deal with that day, unless you've gotten to me pretty early. That's the main problem with subtle discrimination. It leaves those that it affects the most powerless against it, quietly discouraging them. If they speak up, they're treated to eye rolls at the least, and at the worst, are called oppressors themselves. We're accused of not wanting equal rights, but of wanting tyranny." http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/
  - zellyman 14y ago
    So someone making a joke about sex is exclusionary to you? Why so sex negative?
    - colabug 14y ago
      I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.
      - zellyman 14y ago
        It doesn't surprise me that you can't parse it.
        colabug 14y ago
        Classy, first you imply that I don't like sex and now that I'm a moron. Boy am I glad that we don't work together. I like sex, I just happen to prefer my work/professional environments without sexual overtones.
zbuc 14y ago
Can you please clarify how a "big dongle" joke is sexist? I honestly don't understand and I think many people don't and that's why they're saying it's not sexist. You haven't really given any supporting evidence here -- you just said it created a "hostile, sexualized environment". How?

by colabug 14y ago

ianschenck 14y ago

I still don't see how "large dongle" is sexist. I'm glad you take the time to re-educate those around you. It's probably the hardest thing to do, but ultimately the best way forward for everyone. Maybe I'm overly optimistic on the ability of education though. What I find really suspect is her feeling like and calling herself a hero. Her reference to herself as "Joan of Arc". Also going public immediately. I have been, more than once in my previous career, in a situation where a female engineer was actually in a real, abusive situation. I handled these situations "by the book". At one point I was asked by HR if I wanted to know the outcome. Of course I said "NO, but please let me know when she is doing better." I can't imagine feeling like a "hero". These were absolutely terrible experiences for me. I never sought out back slapping. I did seek out re-assurance from my father (also one of these god-awful male engineer chauvinistic pigs), and he was supportive. I can't even imagine going public with something like this. Something just strikes me as completely wrong. And if you're going to complain about offensive public comments, don't post publicly offensive pictures with racial overtones. Sorry, it is relevant. It demonstrates a double standard.

colabug 14y ago
It creates a sexualized environment, here's a good article: http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-topic-at-conferences-keeping-it-women-friendly/ http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-... It's hard to understand the "hero" feeling unless you've been quiet and avoided speaking out on similar (and often bigger) events. It feels good to stand up for your fellow females and community, even if you get negative public attention for it. I think more things big and small should be addressed so that it never leads to a "real" abusive environment again (As an aside, you don't get to decide what is a "real, abusive situation").
- loudcode 14y ago
  Who decides what's the real abusive situation? I suspect the victim. It's not possible for a third person to objectively know, it can only be guessed in which case some kind of "decision" is necessary. Sorry, but what is a bystander to do? You are upset because he decided something was abusive and acted. I guess you would be happier with inaction? I don't understand.
  - colabug 14y ago
    Who says I am upset? I wasn't making any comment or judgment on his action or inaction in a particular past situation. If he helped someone fight abuse, I'm all for that! My aside was about the danger and power of bystanders picking and choosing what is real abuse. In this case it was obvious that something needed to be done. Great. However, if it isn't obvious or seems insignificant to a bystander, that doesn't make it less real for the victim. There was an implied judgment that this situation couldn't constitute "real abuse."
- ianschenck 14y ago
  Hey, sorry. I didn't mean to write "real, abusive situation". I meant "really abusive situation", as in "very abusive situation". It appears I cannot correct it. I was tired. Having a discussion with folks like you requires tiring surgical precision with rhetoric. It's interesting that given the two possible interpretations, you picked the most offensive. You should be careful with that - not everyone out there is oblivious and unsympathetic to the problems facing women and underlying currents of a male-dominated society.

jorgenev 14y ago

> I, a female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you mention, yet I came out mature. Perhaps you should try being less insufferable. The reason why no one should ever give in to this women in tech nonsense is that because the complaints are mostly just a projection of the complainer's own social awkwardness -it is easier to blame other people, and to join causes that attribute your (social) difficulties to things other than yourself. If one complaint is resolved, they will just dream up another -because the content of the complaint is not important to them, it is the act of complaining that sustains them.

colabug 14y ago
Can you please explain why you have declared me insufferable? Surely it couldn't be the simple act of sharing my view and expressing a differing option based on my own experiences with sexism and victim blaming. This is classic derailing: "You Just Enjoy Being Offended" http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-google-cache-reconstruction/#enjoyit http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-goo... P.S. It always warms my heart to hear phrases like "women in tech nonsense."
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- truthtacular 14y ago
  Awesome site!

antihero 14y ago

Forking and dongle jokes are benign. Unless you are basically a mormon, I'm not sure how being a woman gives you a "right" to be offended by something like this.

colabug 14y ago
Check out this blog, does a great job of explaining the frustrations of subtle sexism. "You, person who told me to lighten up, saw one little thing. It didn't seem like a big deal, did it? One little line! One joke! One comment! But it's not just one thing to me: it's one of thousands that I've had to endure since I was old enough to be told that 'X is for boys!' It's probably not even the first thing I've had to deal with that day, unless you've gotten to me pretty early. That's the main problem with subtle discrimination. It leaves those that it affects the most powerless against it, quietly discouraging them. If they speak up, they're treated to eye rolls at the least, and at the worst, are called oppressors themselves. We're accused of not wanting equal rights, but of wanting tyranny." http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/
- zellyman 14y ago
  So someone making a joke about sex is exclusionary to you? Why so sex negative?
  - colabug 14y ago
    I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.
    - zellyman 14y ago
      It doesn't surprise me that you can't parse it.
      - colabug 14y ago
        Classy, first you imply that I don't like sex and now that I'm a moron. Boy am I glad that we don't work together. I like sex, I just happen to prefer my work/professional environments without sexual overtones.

zbuc 14y ago

Can you please clarify how a "big dongle" joke is sexist? I honestly don't understand and I think many people don't and that's why they're saying it's not sexist. You haven't really given any supporting evidence here -- you just said it created a "hostile, sexualized environment". How?