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Preventing Unsubscribes in Forwarded Emails
- carlsednaoui 14y agoI love the idea of having a banner prompting forwarded email receivers to sign up. Regarding the unsubscribes, have you tested tweaking the copy? An example could be: "Unsubscribe XYZ@mail.com" instead of just "Unsubscribe"?
- josscrowcroft 14y agoThis would be the preferred way for my systems, yeah.
- alxndresp 14y agoWouldn't requiring inputting your email address and then pressing an ubsubscribe button work? That way when the forwarded user tries to unsubscribe, they know they aren't subscribed.
- carlsednaoui 14y agoGood idea, but I feel that this places a burden on the subscribed user that wishes to unsubscribe.
- jlgreco 14y agoParticularly when the subscribed user has several email accounts that all forward to another. It is a pain in the ass to click back and figure out exactly which address something came from.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- carlsednaoui 14y agoExactly!
- andrewreds 14y agoWould this really be a problem? If you have a look at the article, linked from the article, they are hiding the un-subscribe link when the link is inside quotes. For me, the emails that get forwarded to different accounts (due to email rules), don't have quotes, so the link will show. But pressing the forward button will put quotes around the entire email, so the link won't be shown. In saying that, there are probably some email setup out there, that doesn't work like mine, and just happens to wrap every email that it displays in quotes...
- jlgreco 14y agoI don't know if it is a problem with their system, but it has been an issue numerous times with other systems for me. I don't see how their system would solve the issue that occurs with this system: "inputting your email address and then pressing an ubsubscribe button" If I have to input my email address, I have to determine which email address I have to input.
- jonknee 14y agoI have run into this several times. Always very annoying. I have many accounts in a desktop app and a unified inbox.
- milkshakes 14y agoThis is possibly in violation of CAN-SPAM: You can’t charge a fee, require the recipient to give you any personally identifying information beyond an email address, or make the recipient take any step other than sending a reply email or visiting a single page on an Internet website as a condition for honoring an opt-out request.[1] [1] http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-compliance-guide-business http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-complia...
- Domenic_S 14y agoHow do you figure?
- whatshisface 14y agoI don't see how that would stop what the grandparent was talking about. Go to single page->enter email->unsubscribed
- ceejayoz 14y agoI think that's an overly narrow interpretation of "visiting a single page". I've seen very prominent providers who've definitely been around long enough to know the legalities (the hard way) use the "enter your e-mail address" approach.
- rvkennedy 14y agoWhen I click "unsubscribe", I expect to be unsubscribed. If I just get a page that invites me to enter my email, which the page should know already, I find it's easier, and vastly more satisfying, just to mark the mail as spam.
- saurik 14y agoOk, if we are going to start using that "mark as spam" button to punish people, maybe then I should go sign up for your comms.io "tell me when the product is ready" mailing list using a bunch of Hotmail and Gmail accounts, and mark your messages spam on all of them when I receive them. I mean, if we are going to use that button to feel "satisfied" by punishing others whose business practices we or actions we disagree with, rather than to actually mark, you know, actual spam that we shouldn't have received in the first place, why not include some old fashioned tit-for-tat, right? Seriously: you are abusing the right to be part of a collective spam filter by interpreting the rules of that law in that way. You aren't even doing it in a way that other users of that spam filter are going to obviously appreciate: a lot of people (heaven forbid) actually like receiving the email we sign up for.
- elliotanderson 14y agoEven working on the copy text would decrease accidental unsubscribes. Something as simple as "This email was sent to somebody@example.org, if you are this person click here to unsubscribe somebody@example.org" then display the email address again prominently on the unsub page
- eli 14y agoI think you would be surprised by how many people 1) Have multiple email addresses forward to one inbox and 2) Don't know how to check what address a particular message was sent to. I regularly see people reply to our messages and ask us to remove an address that we never sent anything to... (and we have a prominent one-click unsubscribe on every message!)
- chimeracoder 14y agoHonestly, I just like having them email me when I've unsubscribed. That way, if somebody else does it, I know because I receive a notification. If I'm unsubscribing from a spammy newsletter, I don't mind them sending exactly one "unsubscribe confirmation" email immediately that I can then have in my records later on in case I forget whether or not (or when) I unsubscribed.
- ceejayoz 14y agoThat actually drives me nuts about Mailchimp in particular, and I've seen a good number of folks grouse about it on Twitter. Interesting to see someone having the complete opposite opinion about them.
- TillE 14y agoThe only such notices I've been truly annoyed by are the ones that say "now please wait 6-8 weeks for your unsubscribe request to be processed". Otherwise, it's really a very small thing to deal with. And it can be nice to have that email in your archive for future reference, like if they start spamming you again.
- emn13 14y agoSame here, doesn't bother me either. I think the people it bothers might be bothered partly because they were annoyed at being spammed in the first place, and this is just another drop in the bucket. Sure, it'll trigger annoyance, but the real cause lies elsewhere.
- onan_barbarian 14y agoAs long as it's possible to work around this, it's OK. I have far too many 'academic conference' emails (no longer an academic, so I don't want them) where it's hard to unsubscribe because I'm getting the email from a chain of forwarded address (many of which I can't actually send mail from anymore).
- raldi 14y agoHow does this work?
- ComputerGuru 14y agoRead the linked article. Email clients wrap the contents of forwarded messages in a <blockquote>, you just have to use CSS rules to hide the contents of a "blockquote yourfooterclasss" while otherwise showing yourfooterclass by default. EDIT I actually meant "read the article linked from the linked article" — I too spent a good minute there trying to find out their solution.
- raldi 14y agoI read the article, and the only mention of blockquotes was in the CSS / HTML itself. I don't see any mention in the article about how it works. Still, thanks for the explanation. Does every mail client do this (like, due to an RFC) or just the popular ones?
- mnutt 14y agoIt varies between mail clients, but they generally put the forwarded part of the message in either a blockquote or a div with a class that can be targeted. It's how the vertical blue line is produced for the quoted portion.
- matt_heimer 14y agoRead here: http://jonathan-kim.com/2011/programmatically-customizing-a-forwarded-email/ http://jonathan-kim.com/2011/programmatically-customizing-a-... Basically most e-mail clients change the dom structure in some way when you forward an email (like wrapping the original in a div). Write some CSS rules that require an unmodified structure to show the unsubscribe button.
- hijonathan 14y agoDarn, you found me!
- Tichy 14y agoIt seems a bit scary that forwarded mails can be changed. As a spammer, send something interesting and make it an ad when forwarded?
- zeckalpha 14y agoSending something interesting is a hard problem.
- Tichy 14y agoNormal people forward silly jokes, or fake virus warnings, or fake cancer donation calls and stuff like that. Not sure it is that hard. Perhaps you could even monitor popular news sites for trending memes (for example trending YouTube videos).
- jacalata 14y agoIf you want to take this even further, here are a couple of other suggestions: Require confirmation instead of one-click unsubscribe** Even better - allow unsubscribes by having the user take a photo of themself next to a handwritten sign with today's date, their email address and a request to be unsubscribed. Then you know it wasn't an accident!
- revorad 14y agoYou forgot 2-factor auth.
- danabramov 14y agoAnd a passport, please.
- junto 14y agoAnd a work visa.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- jonemo 14y agoAfter reading the linked article and thinking WTF-hows-that-supposed-to-work, then reading the linked article, and reading the linked article again, I think I found the big caveat: It relies on unstandardized undocumented behavior of some email clients. Specifically, it doesn't work in Gmail. But the problem actually seems real, makes me glad that I am not an email marketer. If you provide a one-click unsubscribe to your users, you don't want them to give somebody else that link. Reading through this HN thread, I see two and a half other solutions mentioned: (1a) Require users to enter their email address on unsubscribe. I hate that one because frequently it's really hard to figure out at which of my email addresses the message first arrived. (1b) Require users to confirm the unsubscribe The better version of the unsubscribe forms from alternative (1) have the email address pre-filled, which wouldn't stop someone who knows what they are doing from unsubscribing others. But it gives those unsubscribing others unintentionally a hint about how they ended up with that message. (2) Send an email confirmation after unsubscribe This way you can just re-subscribe if one of your friends unsubscribed you. Looks like some people in the discussion below like this approach, others hate it. If I had to pick, I'd probably chose (2) because that's the only way of making sure an accidentally unsubscribed user notices what happened.
- kevinconroy 14y agoAs a developer who has to do some email marketing, I can say "It doesn't work in Gmail" is a shame, but not a non-starter. If you're used to HTML5 and CSS3, HTML for email will make your eyes bleed. Many CSS2 (!) attributes have quirks, few are cross-email client compatible. It's recommended that you inline your CSS, rather than using a <style> block, to ensure that it works as widely as possible. Even the <p> tag is considered a no-no as not every client renders it properly. So while this doesn't work in Gmail, the <p> tag doesn't work in Yahoo!. #fml
- gkoberger 14y agoArticle aside, it's much better to have a one-click unsubscribe that just works. It's an edge case that someone will unsubscribe from someone else's mailing list or click it by mistake, so making every single person (99% who are unsubscribing on purpose) confirm, log in, enter their address or receive a confirmation is an infuriating waste of time. The best way to mitigate this is a simple "You unsubscribed whatever@gmail.com", with a little undo button in case it was a mistake. And if all this still goes wrong... if the person liked your newsletter enough, they'll figure out what happened when they stop getting it. (Side note: I've really been hoping GMail and other clients would accept a URL in email headers that would handle unsubscribe, so they could add a button to the UI. I know that's oversimplifying everything, but it would significantly improve the email experience.)
- adnrw 14y ago> And if all this still goes wrong... if the person liked your newsletter enough, they'll figure out what happened when they stop getting it. Not necessarily, unfortunately. As an example, take emails advertising pre-sale tickets to events, sent to people who have signed up specifically to have access to buy tickets before the general public. If their friend is able to unsubscribe them, they don't get the email and miss the pre-sale access. Even if they do realise and resubscribe, there's a good chance they'll have missed the pre-sale period anyway (which only lasts a few days). That's one of many examples that make "not to worry they'll just resubscribe" not quite work properly. > The best way to mitigate this is a simple "You unsubscribed whatever@gmail.com", with a little undo button in case it was a mistake. In addition to this, it's worth putting "This email was sent to whatever@gmail.com, unsubscribe by clicking here" in the email.
- B-Con 14y agoWhat if it's malicious? Eg, "I hate your political ideology. I'll unsubscribe you from the site you forwarded me an article from." I'm sure that kind of threat is minimal and easily corrected, but the OP's suggestion of hiding it somewhat addresses that. It doesn't eliminate the threat of course, but it doesn't put it under their nose.
- 14y ago
- signed0 14y agoWhat if instead one just focused on lowering the amount of times someone forwards an email containing an unsubscribe link. Perhaps a "send to a friend" link in the email would help?
- eru 14y agoBut I like my email client (say gmail), I don't want to use someone else's half-baked solution. And especially the highly engaged users would have to copy-and-paste the 85 email addresses they forward to.
- lessnonymous 14y agoThis link is common in these emails. But as a user it's annoying as all the people I'd forward it to are in my address book. Plus I don't trust you with these email addresses. I'll send the email on thankyouverymuch.
- vacri 14y agosomeone that would share an email with 85 other people then it turns out that one of the people who received the forwarded email thought it was spam and clicked the unsubscribe link It may be ugly, but the system works :)
- DanBC 14y ago> The Litmus team discovered these silent unsubscribers when they noticed a long-time fan removed himself from the Litmus newsletter after sharing an email with 85 of his coworkers. What an idiot. People here seem to think unsubs might be malicious; they don't seem to think that people getting email don't want it and just click any unsub link they see. Don't forget that the vast majority of people are hopeless with computers. Anyone sending email to me along with 85 other people, especially if it's something like the Litmus product, is going to annoy the fuck out of me.
- kintamanimatt 14y agoI'll admit I've clicked the unsubscribe link in a bid to stop the original sender from getting emails that they subsequently forwarded to me. Worked like a charm and prevented them from getting upset when their upset would have caused trouble.
- eli 14y agoThat's... awfully passive aggressive.
- kintamanimatt 14y agoI knew someone would say that, but no it's not (not even close!) because it was just a way to stop the stream of garbage without offending someone in a delicate situation. There was no component of aggression.
- kfury 14y agoCan you imagine the abuse? You forward a cat video and they see 'Help I'm trapped in a strange city and need money!'?
- nemetroid 14y agoI like this one (with a mailto link): > To unsubscribe, send an empty message to unsubscribe@... Though it might be difficult to understand for less technically minded users, and might be a problem if you don't know what address the mail was sent to.
- brendoncrawford 14y agoThis reminds me of why I am glad I have plain-text mode enabled in Thunderbird. I do not want my emails to be webpages, and I do not want email senders using clever tricks to determine how I see my emails, and how my recipients see them. This problem is much better solved with an unsubscribe followup email containing a re-subscribe link.
- eli 14y agoLitmus has some very clever code. When they first released their analytics feature, I reverse engineered it because I couldn't believe they could track forwards. Their "time spent reading message" was another cute hack.
- dubcanada 14y agoThey also have a print hack which is kinda cool. But most of their hacks are not 100%
- eli 14y agoAgreed, at best they're useful as a relative measure (version A of the message got more reported forwards/prints/whatever than version B). I doubt the raw numbers are anywhere close to correct. Heck, it's hard enough to track "opens".
- gpvos 14y agoIt's sad that only Gmail, and no other email clients, sanitize HTML email to ensure that stuff like this is not possible.
- RobAley 14y agoOne less technical way I've seen this handled is with a footer something like: ---- If your friend or colleague has forwarded this to you and you would like to SUBSCRIBE to our mailing list, click here. If you are the subscriber (THEIR@EMAIL.ADDRESS) and would like to unsubscribe, click here. ---- The unsubscribe page also has large text with the e-mail address that has been unsubscribed and an undo button, and the unsubscribed account is sent one more e-mail (after a short period) confirming the unsubscription with a link to re-subscribe if they want to. It doesn't prevent malicious unsubscription, but help to prevent or reverse accidental unsubscriptions of the type in the article. It also "works" in all email clients.
- pc86 14y agoUnfortunately that doesn't do anybody any good when you Ctrl+F "unsub" and click that link.
- RobAley 14y agoThe e-mail address and undo button on the unsubscribe web page would help. Or maybe add a title, something like: ---- HOW TO SUBSCRIBE OR UNSUBSCRIBE ---- If your friend or colleague has forwarded this to you and you would like to SUBSCRIBE to our mailing list, click here. If you are the subscriber and would like to unsubscribe THEIR@EMAIL.ADDRESS, click here. ----