10 ms·

This kind of gender segregation makes me sad. So many years fighting for women to have the same rights as men, and now it turns out that IT, the youngest techn

by etanol 14y ago

This kind of gender segregation makes me sad. So many years fighting for women to have the same rights as men, and now it turns out that IT, the youngest technology of all, suffers from gender discrimination. Thus motivating the creation of these kind of groups. It's kind of embarrassing.

stcredzero 14y ago
The experience of those who are not just minorities, but even more so is unique and hard to understand. I'm not sure if it has terminology, so I'll call it "hyper-minority." Not only is a "hyper-minority" outnumbered, there are so few of them, in many contexts there is no minority community to fall back on, or even if there is, it's so small, its presence can often not be felt. Being a hyper-minority has many of the visibility drawbacks of being a celebrity, minus the personal fame and some of the benefits. Where I grew up, it was so predominantly white, the family had to drive 50 miles to visit other Asian friends, who weren't even in the same ethnic group. While there are more women in programming than before, there are still times and places where a woman can feel like a hyper-minority. Being defined by how you look, or some other external signal, instead of what you can do and what you know is a significant barrier. It's like a cuckoo that can eat up all of the energy and nourishment that should be going to growing genuine working relationships.
selenamarie 14y ago
Heh. Well, on the bright side, I've brought together 85 women that were not part of any open source or Python community before.
- etanol 14y ago
  So I've read, congratulations! It's just that these things always remind me to a Simpsons episode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_Just_Want_to_Have_Sums http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_Just_Want_to_Have_Sums Hence my whining. I hope I'm very wrong.
  - selenamarie 14y ago
    There's a significant body of research forming around how to get "minority cultural groups" to survive inside a larger, dominant culture. If you look into "cultural resistance" you'll find some interesting books (I recommend the _cultural resistance reader_ and _unlocking the clubhouse_). Basically, it comes down to helping someone who is part of a cultural minority maintain their identity (in this case, women's culture) while they are dipping a toe into the waters of the different culture. That's why groups like PyLadies are useful and important. The research supporting creating these groups is why I believe they ultimately will work to increase the number of women involved in open source, and the tech world in general. Now we just have to collect data about what we're doing that works and what doesn't, and try to spread the knowledge as fast and as far as we can.
eric-hu 14y ago
I think trait-looking-explore-<hobby/profession> groups will always exist. It's easier to bond with strangers when you have 2 things in common instead of 1, all else equal. I am not saying tech doesn't have gender discrimination. There are plenty of blog posts out there that say otherwise. I just don't take post as an indicator of such.
burntsushi 14y ago
The group being form here is trying to encourage women to participate. This does not mean it is a response to gender discrimination. In particular, just because a field is predominantly Y does not mean X are discriminated against. There's nothing wrong with an underrepresented group trying to attract other members of the same demographic to create a sense of community. Just like there's nothing wrong with being underrepresented.
shanelja 14y ago
I'm actually being placed on the other side of the fence here, I don't have a clue what "gender discrimination" looks like in the broader tech world, all I know is that in my company, the techies are equal in numbers, male and female (thought not of course by design.) I find it sad that I often see a great group of people and a group which I would absolutely love being able to join, but that it is exclusively for women, is this really how we want to solve a perceived gender discrimination? By creating another one which leans the other way? So often politics of gender, race, sexuality, etc. seems to over shadow what these groups should really be about, which is bringing people together to learn and have fun experiences. Men and women can have these fun experiences together, we don't need to invite purely men or women, imagine the backlash if "blokes who code" had a male only tech group. It's very easy to play the "under-represented" card, but the fact of the matter is this: women in the U.S. ever so slightly out number men. There is absolutely nothing stopping women joining in with the tech industry, there is no law, no patriarchy standing in their way, the only thing stopping a woman from joining the tech industry is herself.
- selenamarie 14y ago
  > I don't have a clue what "gender discrimination" looks like in the broader tech world Here's some reading that might help you get started with educating yourself: * http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/mar/22/technology-women-sexism-question http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/mar/22/techno... * http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/global/measures-promoting-women-in-business-are-working-reding-says.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/global/measures-p...
  - kmfrk 14y ago
    This wiki of gender incidents in tech is my go-to link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents.
    - angersock 14y ago
      Interesting read, but some of the articles seem to be hearasy (no sources listed beyond "so and so seems to remember"). Additionally, some of it seems pretty hairtrigger stuff--body image triggering? Thanks for the link regardless.
Mz 14y ago
I am a woman. I have been in plenty of groups which are mostly female. If there is a single male, he tends to become the central figure with the most social influence. Women will turn into backstabbing bitches to compete for who gets to align themselves with the sole male. I do not engage in such behavior. Commenting on its existence tends to not go over well with anyone, male or female. I have often been the sole woman willing to stand up to such a man in a largely female group. It is a great way to make enemies all around. I am sure there are complex social reasons for such patterns. This is probably not the time or place to discuss it. I am only trying to suggest that a good reason to have some "ladies only" groups is because of the way a lot of women behave around men, not because of the way men behave around women or because "men are all sexist pigs". If this works for some women to help them have a healthier relationship to their career goals, I think it's a good thing.
- int3 14y ago
  Isn't the effect true regardless of which direction the gender imbalance is in? I.e. if there's a female in a male-dominated group, she tends to end up with more social influence as the guys compete for her.
  - Mz 14y ago
    No, I don't think so. A lone female who acts dominant (or even "equal"), socially, gets in serious hot water. BTDT.

by etanol 14y ago

stcredzero 14y ago

The experience of those who are not just minorities, but even more so is unique and hard to understand. I'm not sure if it has terminology, so I'll call it "hyper-minority." Not only is a "hyper-minority" outnumbered, there are so few of them, in many contexts there is no minority community to fall back on, or even if there is, it's so small, its presence can often not be felt. Being a hyper-minority has many of the visibility drawbacks of being a celebrity, minus the personal fame and some of the benefits. Where I grew up, it was so predominantly white, the family had to drive 50 miles to visit other Asian friends, who weren't even in the same ethnic group. While there are more women in programming than before, there are still times and places where a woman can feel like a hyper-minority. Being defined by how you look, or some other external signal, instead of what you can do and what you know is a significant barrier. It's like a cuckoo that can eat up all of the energy and nourishment that should be going to growing genuine working relationships.

selenamarie 14y ago

Heh. Well, on the bright side, I've brought together 85 women that were not part of any open source or Python community before.

etanol 14y ago
So I've read, congratulations! It's just that these things always remind me to a Simpsons episode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_Just_Want_to_Have_Sums http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_Just_Want_to_Have_Sums Hence my whining. I hope I'm very wrong.
- selenamarie 14y ago
  There's a significant body of research forming around how to get "minority cultural groups" to survive inside a larger, dominant culture. If you look into "cultural resistance" you'll find some interesting books (I recommend the _cultural resistance reader_ and _unlocking the clubhouse_). Basically, it comes down to helping someone who is part of a cultural minority maintain their identity (in this case, women's culture) while they are dipping a toe into the waters of the different culture. That's why groups like PyLadies are useful and important. The research supporting creating these groups is why I believe they ultimately will work to increase the number of women involved in open source, and the tech world in general. Now we just have to collect data about what we're doing that works and what doesn't, and try to spread the knowledge as fast and as far as we can.

eric-hu 14y ago

I think trait-looking-explore-<hobby/profession> groups will always exist. It's easier to bond with strangers when you have 2 things in common instead of 1, all else equal. I am not saying tech doesn't have gender discrimination. There are plenty of blog posts out there that say otherwise. I just don't take post as an indicator of such.

burntsushi 14y ago

The group being form here is trying to encourage women to participate. This does not mean it is a response to gender discrimination. In particular, just because a field is predominantly Y does not mean X are discriminated against. There's nothing wrong with an underrepresented group trying to attract other members of the same demographic to create a sense of community. Just like there's nothing wrong with being underrepresented.

shanelja 14y ago

I'm actually being placed on the other side of the fence here, I don't have a clue what "gender discrimination" looks like in the broader tech world, all I know is that in my company, the techies are equal in numbers, male and female (thought not of course by design.) I find it sad that I often see a great group of people and a group which I would absolutely love being able to join, but that it is exclusively for women, is this really how we want to solve a perceived gender discrimination? By creating another one which leans the other way? So often politics of gender, race, sexuality, etc. seems to over shadow what these groups should really be about, which is bringing people together to learn and have fun experiences. Men and women can have these fun experiences together, we don't need to invite purely men or women, imagine the backlash if "blokes who code" had a male only tech group. It's very easy to play the "under-represented" card, but the fact of the matter is this: women in the U.S. ever so slightly out number men. There is absolutely nothing stopping women joining in with the tech industry, there is no law, no patriarchy standing in their way, the only thing stopping a woman from joining the tech industry is herself.

selenamarie 14y ago
> I don't have a clue what "gender discrimination" looks like in the broader tech world Here's some reading that might help you get started with educating yourself: * http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/mar/22/technology-women-sexism-question http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/mar/22/techno... * http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/global/measures-promoting-women-in-business-are-working-reding-says.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/business/global/measures-p...
- kmfrk 14y ago
  This wiki of gender incidents in tech is my go-to link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents.
  - angersock 14y ago
    Interesting read, but some of the articles seem to be hearasy (no sources listed beyond "so and so seems to remember"). Additionally, some of it seems pretty hairtrigger stuff--body image triggering? Thanks for the link regardless.

Mz 14y ago

I am a woman. I have been in plenty of groups which are mostly female. If there is a single male, he tends to become the central figure with the most social influence. Women will turn into backstabbing bitches to compete for who gets to align themselves with the sole male. I do not engage in such behavior. Commenting on its existence tends to not go over well with anyone, male or female. I have often been the sole woman willing to stand up to such a man in a largely female group. It is a great way to make enemies all around. I am sure there are complex social reasons for such patterns. This is probably not the time or place to discuss it. I am only trying to suggest that a good reason to have some "ladies only" groups is because of the way a lot of women behave around men, not because of the way men behave around women or because "men are all sexist pigs". If this works for some women to help them have a healthier relationship to their career goals, I think it's a good thing.

int3 14y ago
Isn't the effect true regardless of which direction the gender imbalance is in? I.e. if there's a female in a male-dominated group, she tends to end up with more social influence as the guys compete for her.
- Mz 14y ago
  No, I don't think so. A lone female who acts dominant (or even "equal"), socially, gets in serious hot water. BTDT.