4 ms·

I see a few problems with this: * The website doesn't have critical mass or any special hooks (like pg's essays and pg himself, for instance) to help build it

I see a few problems with this: * The website doesn't have critical mass or any special hooks (like pg's essays and pg himself, for instance) to help build it * I'm not "applying" to post on a website * Costing people karma is going to drive everything towards a hive mind as soon as possible; if you're going to lose karma by posting you're going to try to make sure that you'll earn that karma back. People are also not going to burn karma making civil responses, everything will become a political performance.

tptacek 14y ago
I'm with you, and would be happy to post a bet (proceeds to Watsi!) that none of these invite-only HN clones are going to succeed long term.
- angersock 14y ago
  What was it Grouch Marx said? "I don't want to belong to any club that would accept people like me as a member"? Edit: Updated caps is from telegram, apparently. Edit 2: Undid caps--sorry everyone. can't take it.
  - thaumaturgy 14y ago
    So, what you're saying is that HN should ban your account? All snark aside, I hope you can see the irony of your comment.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      I am not seeing the irony. HN isn't an invite-only site; it's not a club at all. That's the point.
      - thaumaturgy 14y ago
        HN has all the properties of a club, it's just very cheap to get in. It's certainly possible to be kicked out of the club (just ask LoseThos/SparrowOS); so, since HN continues to accept angersock as a member, why is he still here?
        angersock 14y ago
        Personally, I stay for the drinks and ambiance. :) More seriously: tptacek hit it on the head. This isn't an invite-only club where I was required to apply. This is a community where you may be banned for bad behavior (as I am acutely aware), but otherwise you are somewhat free to exist as an independent vendor in the marketplace of ideas. An online community which is exclusive enough that I need apply is probably not going to line up nicely with my preferences or with (I suggest) the idea of offering free debate and discussion. This is especially true given their karma model, which as others here have pointed out somewhat encourages hivemind attenuation especially since it is annoying to get into and join.
        thaumaturgy 14y ago
        > This isn't an invite-only club where I was required to apply. "Club" does not imply those things though. It only implies membership, and everyone with a working account on HN is a member. I realize I'm being pedantic, but it's to make a point about your earlier comment. > An online community which is exclusive enough that I need apply is probably not going to line up nicely with my preferences or with (I suggest) the idea of offering free debate and discussion. OK, so this at least is a point worth making. All you're saying is that you don't like the analogy of living in a gated community. Cool, I can accept that. But that's a personal preference; it doesn't make gated communities inherently bad, and there are still lots of people that prefer to live in them. (For the record, I dislike actual gated communities.) > This is especially true given their karma model, which as others here have pointed out somewhat encourages hivemind attenuation especially since it is annoying to get into and join. I don't think "hivemind" is a smart criticism (see also http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5136265 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5136265), and I think that we won't know whether or not their karma model will work until it's been tried. Remember Slashdot's moderation model?
        angersock 14y ago
        I think Slashdot has a pretty fun model, if you are referring to the point system. My favorite moderation model so far is SA's, because it actually adds value instead of merely deterring vandalism. That's also why seeing pg post here is nice. It is very much my preference, but I do think that ultimately we'll be able to show and justify that gated marketplaces of ideas are objectively bad (as exemplified by community-created filter bubbles, etc.). Edit: No idea why people are downvoting you. You raised a few good points for discussion. C'mon HN. :(
thaumaturgy 14y ago
> The website doesn't have critical mass or any special hooks (like pg's essays and pg himself, for instance) to help build it I think this is the only real problem with the site, really. It's going to need some kind of attractor to make people want to be there. (And honestly, I'm hoping it finds one.) > I'm not "applying" to post on a website Why not? > Costing people karma is going to drive everything towards a hive mind as soon as possible... "Hive mind" is a label that people seem to be applying to, "opinions I don't like". I can't think of a reason why this system would penalize different opinions, so long as they were thoughtful presented well. It would however penalize stupid ones, which would be just fine. I hope it draws enough traffic to become a useful experiment. I think it's got some good ideas.
- protomyth 14y ago
  Your stupid opinion is seen as thoughtful by me or the other way around. Different is often seen as stupid by those invested in the difference.
  - thaumaturgy 14y ago
    lol

tptacek 14y ago

I'm with you, and would be happy to post a bet (proceeds to Watsi!) that none of these invite-only HN clones are going to succeed long term.

angersock 14y ago
What was it Grouch Marx said? "I don't want to belong to any club that would accept people like me as a member"? Edit: Updated caps is from telegram, apparently. Edit 2: Undid caps--sorry everyone. can't take it.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  So, what you're saying is that HN should ban your account? All snark aside, I hope you can see the irony of your comment.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    I am not seeing the irony. HN isn't an invite-only site; it's not a club at all. That's the point.
    - thaumaturgy 14y ago
      HN has all the properties of a club, it's just very cheap to get in. It's certainly possible to be kicked out of the club (just ask LoseThos/SparrowOS); so, since HN continues to accept angersock as a member, why is he still here?
      - angersock 14y ago
        Personally, I stay for the drinks and ambiance. :) More seriously: tptacek hit it on the head. This isn't an invite-only club where I was required to apply. This is a community where you may be banned for bad behavior (as I am acutely aware), but otherwise you are somewhat free to exist as an independent vendor in the marketplace of ideas. An online community which is exclusive enough that I need apply is probably not going to line up nicely with my preferences or with (I suggest) the idea of offering free debate and discussion. This is especially true given their karma model, which as others here have pointed out somewhat encourages hivemind attenuation especially since it is annoying to get into and join.
        thaumaturgy 14y ago
        > This isn't an invite-only club where I was required to apply. "Club" does not imply those things though. It only implies membership, and everyone with a working account on HN is a member. I realize I'm being pedantic, but it's to make a point about your earlier comment. > An online community which is exclusive enough that I need apply is probably not going to line up nicely with my preferences or with (I suggest) the idea of offering free debate and discussion. OK, so this at least is a point worth making. All you're saying is that you don't like the analogy of living in a gated community. Cool, I can accept that. But that's a personal preference; it doesn't make gated communities inherently bad, and there are still lots of people that prefer to live in them. (For the record, I dislike actual gated communities.) > This is especially true given their karma model, which as others here have pointed out somewhat encourages hivemind attenuation especially since it is annoying to get into and join. I don't think "hivemind" is a smart criticism (see also http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5136265 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5136265), and I think that we won't know whether or not their karma model will work until it's been tried. Remember Slashdot's moderation model?
        angersock 14y ago
        I think Slashdot has a pretty fun model, if you are referring to the point system. My favorite moderation model so far is SA's, because it actually adds value instead of merely deterring vandalism. That's also why seeing pg post here is nice. It is very much my preference, but I do think that ultimately we'll be able to show and justify that gated marketplaces of ideas are objectively bad (as exemplified by community-created filter bubbles, etc.). Edit: No idea why people are downvoting you. You raised a few good points for discussion. C'mon HN. :(

thaumaturgy 14y ago

> The website doesn't have critical mass or any special hooks (like pg's essays and pg himself, for instance) to help build it I think this is the only real problem with the site, really. It's going to need some kind of attractor to make people want to be there. (And honestly, I'm hoping it finds one.) > I'm not "applying" to post on a website Why not? > Costing people karma is going to drive everything towards a hive mind as soon as possible... "Hive mind" is a label that people seem to be applying to, "opinions I don't like". I can't think of a reason why this system would penalize different opinions, so long as they were thoughtful presented well. It would however penalize stupid ones, which would be just fine. I hope it draws enough traffic to become a useful experiment. I think it's got some good ideas.

protomyth 14y ago
Your stupid opinion is seen as thoughtful by me or the other way around. Different is often seen as stupid by those invested in the difference.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  lol