6 ms·

"There are indeed places where drug dealing or use is punishable with death. These places still have pervasive drug use -- in fact, greater use than places wit

"There are indeed places where drug dealing or use is punishable with death. These places still have pervasive drug use -- in fact, greater use than places without such penalties." Examples please. I have examples to the contrary: Singapore and China. What are yours?

moe 18y ago
Sigh. Didn't they teach you in school that name-dropping makes no argument? About China, includes even a history lesson for you: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1402269 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14... And about Singapore: What are your sources? Last time I checked there was no data from Singapore because their government is not particularly interested in allowing independent studies to be made. There is data about their execution rate (death penalty), though. Amnesty international considers it to be amongst the highest worldwide. cf. http://www.hrw.org/legacy/englishwr2k8/docs/2008/01/31/singap17616.htm http://www.hrw.org/legacy/englishwr2k8/docs/2008/01/31/singa... cf. http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/singapore http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/singap...
- newt0311 18y ago
  "About China, includes even a history lesson for you: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14... http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14... Read your source again. Maybe go beyond the title this time. Here is a nice excerpt: "The lifetime prevalence rates of illicit drug use among residents age 15 years or older in high-prevalence Chinese cities increased from 1.1% in 1993 to 1.6% in 1996, and the 1-year prevalence rate increased from 0.9% to 1.2% during this period [10,11]." Now go read that again and notice that in high-prevalence regions, use is ~1-2%. Wonder what it is in the low-prevalence regions... If the US had that kind of usage statistics, every anti-drug activist in the US and I would be very happy. Even happier if use went lower. "Last time I checked there was no data from Singapore because their government is not particularly interested in allowing independent studies to be made. There is data about their execution rate (death penalty), though. Amnesty international considers it to be amongst the highest worldwide." First point: Singapore gives the death penalty for quite a few crimes. By itself, it is not a useful statistic. Furthermore, AI is far from a "neutral observer" on these issues. Lastly, what exactly is the problem with a high execution rate? The lack of crime? Second point: from the CIA Factbook on Singapore: "drug abuse limited because of aggressive law enforcement efforts"
  - colins_pride 18y ago
    First Point: My problem with the death penalty - as a libertarian - is that I can't imagine anything more wrong for my government to do to me than to unjustly take my life away. And if you think wrongful execution doesn't happen, you're kidding yourself. It's just a matter-of-fact combination of no system being perfect, and the law of large numbers. Second Point: That sounds like an opinion about cause and effect, rather than a fact. Which is okay, since the CIA always gets it right, like those WMDs they found right after we conquered Iraq!
    - newt0311 18y ago
      "First Point: My problem with the death penalty - as a libertarian - is that I can't imagine anything more wrong for my government to do to me than to unjustly take my life away. And if you think wrongful execution doesn't happen, you're kidding yourself. It's just a matter-of-fact combination of no system being perfect, and the law of large numbers." "Unjustly" is a matter of opinion (specifically, a Humean ought) and cannot be argued away. Also, wrongful executions do not automatically mean that some policy is a bad idea. If one is interested in an aggregate reduction of problems, like in the case of the drug trade, its a matter of numbers and what works. If you disagree, then you need to explain to me why it is worse for the state to kill somebody than some random mob or a drug overdose. (btw, this especially applies to the death penalty when used against murderers). "Second Point: That sounds like an opinion about cause and effect, rather than a fact. Which is okay, since the CIA always gets it right, like those WMDs they found right after we conquered Iraq!" I used the CIA factbook as a proxy for information. If you wish, you are welcome to do more research on the subject. Keep in mind that Singapore is only 1 hour away from one of the largest drug production regions on the entire planet and yet continues to maintain proper law and order in its territory (this is largely incontestable as anybody who has ever been there will tell you).
  - moe 18y ago
    Now go read that again and notice that in high-prevalence regions, use is ~1-2%. Wonder what it is in the low-prevalence regions... If the US had that kind of usage statistics, every anti-drug activist in the US and I would be very happy. Even happier if use went lower. Let me help you with a few quotes: First: In Chinese history, drug abuse and prostitution have been considered "social evils." The Chinese government typically takes "crackdown" measures and tries to eradicate these phenomena. China did achieve a success story in the 1950s. Illicit drug abuse and prostitution were eradicated through national anti-drug and anti-prostitution campaigns [3,34]. However, this success has not been repeated in the past two decades. Second: Illicit drug abuse and HIV/AIDS have increased rapidly in the past 10 to 20 years in China. The study was a co-op between the University of Alabama and the Chinese Center for Disease Control. Which of them would you guess provided the absolute figures for citation? Lastly, what exactly is the problem with a high execution rate? The lack of crime? Well, the "killing people" part maybe? from the CIA Factbook on Singapore: "drug abuse limited because of aggressive law enforcement efforts" Hmm yes. Totally comprehensive. Well, can't argue that, it's from the factbook after all.

moe 18y ago

Sigh. Didn't they teach you in school that name-dropping makes no argument? About China, includes even a history lesson for you: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1402269 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14... And about Singapore: What are your sources? Last time I checked there was no data from Singapore because their government is not particularly interested in allowing independent studies to be made. There is data about their execution rate (death penalty), though. Amnesty international considers it to be amongst the highest worldwide. cf. http://www.hrw.org/legacy/englishwr2k8/docs/2008/01/31/singap17616.htm http://www.hrw.org/legacy/englishwr2k8/docs/2008/01/31/singa... cf. http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/singapore http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/singap...

newt0311 18y ago
"About China, includes even a history lesson for you: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14... http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=14... Read your source again. Maybe go beyond the title this time. Here is a nice excerpt: "The lifetime prevalence rates of illicit drug use among residents age 15 years or older in high-prevalence Chinese cities increased from 1.1% in 1993 to 1.6% in 1996, and the 1-year prevalence rate increased from 0.9% to 1.2% during this period [10,11]." Now go read that again and notice that in high-prevalence regions, use is ~1-2%. Wonder what it is in the low-prevalence regions... If the US had that kind of usage statistics, every anti-drug activist in the US and I would be very happy. Even happier if use went lower. "Last time I checked there was no data from Singapore because their government is not particularly interested in allowing independent studies to be made. There is data about their execution rate (death penalty), though. Amnesty international considers it to be amongst the highest worldwide." First point: Singapore gives the death penalty for quite a few crimes. By itself, it is not a useful statistic. Furthermore, AI is far from a "neutral observer" on these issues. Lastly, what exactly is the problem with a high execution rate? The lack of crime? Second point: from the CIA Factbook on Singapore: "drug abuse limited because of aggressive law enforcement efforts"
- colins_pride 18y ago
  First Point: My problem with the death penalty - as a libertarian - is that I can't imagine anything more wrong for my government to do to me than to unjustly take my life away. And if you think wrongful execution doesn't happen, you're kidding yourself. It's just a matter-of-fact combination of no system being perfect, and the law of large numbers. Second Point: That sounds like an opinion about cause and effect, rather than a fact. Which is okay, since the CIA always gets it right, like those WMDs they found right after we conquered Iraq!
  - newt0311 18y ago
    "First Point: My problem with the death penalty - as a libertarian - is that I can't imagine anything more wrong for my government to do to me than to unjustly take my life away. And if you think wrongful execution doesn't happen, you're kidding yourself. It's just a matter-of-fact combination of no system being perfect, and the law of large numbers." "Unjustly" is a matter of opinion (specifically, a Humean ought) and cannot be argued away. Also, wrongful executions do not automatically mean that some policy is a bad idea. If one is interested in an aggregate reduction of problems, like in the case of the drug trade, its a matter of numbers and what works. If you disagree, then you need to explain to me why it is worse for the state to kill somebody than some random mob or a drug overdose. (btw, this especially applies to the death penalty when used against murderers). "Second Point: That sounds like an opinion about cause and effect, rather than a fact. Which is okay, since the CIA always gets it right, like those WMDs they found right after we conquered Iraq!" I used the CIA factbook as a proxy for information. If you wish, you are welcome to do more research on the subject. Keep in mind that Singapore is only 1 hour away from one of the largest drug production regions on the entire planet and yet continues to maintain proper law and order in its territory (this is largely incontestable as anybody who has ever been there will tell you).
- moe 18y ago
  Now go read that again and notice that in high-prevalence regions, use is ~1-2%. Wonder what it is in the low-prevalence regions... If the US had that kind of usage statistics, every anti-drug activist in the US and I would be very happy. Even happier if use went lower. Let me help you with a few quotes: First: In Chinese history, drug abuse and prostitution have been considered "social evils." The Chinese government typically takes "crackdown" measures and tries to eradicate these phenomena. China did achieve a success story in the 1950s. Illicit drug abuse and prostitution were eradicated through national anti-drug and anti-prostitution campaigns [3,34]. However, this success has not been repeated in the past two decades. Second: Illicit drug abuse and HIV/AIDS have increased rapidly in the past 10 to 20 years in China. The study was a co-op between the University of Alabama and the Chinese Center for Disease Control. Which of them would you guess provided the absolute figures for citation? Lastly, what exactly is the problem with a high execution rate? The lack of crime? Well, the "killing people" part maybe? from the CIA Factbook on Singapore: "drug abuse limited because of aggressive law enforcement efforts" Hmm yes. Totally comprehensive. Well, can't argue that, it's from the factbook after all.