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But wasn't this whole thing a big misunderstanding? They were never going to sell users' photos. The TOS changed to make way for "promoted" photos (advertising

But wasn't this whole thing a big misunderstanding? They were never going to sell users' photos. The TOS changed to make way for "promoted" photos (advertising). http://blog.instagram.com/post/38252135408/thank-you-and-were-listening http://blog.instagram.com/post/38252135408/thank-you-and-wer... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

cryptoz 14y ago
I think you're agreeing with OP. The problem was never rooted in selling photos, the problem was Instagram's arrogance and willingness to sneak changes into the TOS without talking to the users. The changes themselves maybe didn't matter so much in this case as did their inability to communicate.
zmj 14y ago
That statement would be made regardless of their original intent. It isn't evidence in either direction.
logn 14y ago
"The language we proposed also raised question about whether your photos can be part of an advertisement. We do not have plans for anything like this and because of that we’re going to remove the language that raised the question" They admit right there that the TOS allowed for brands to feature user photos in ads. It's a nice cover to claim you never intended that, then if so why put it in TOS? Maybe the legal department got carried away, but more likely they envisioned photos being like Facebook "likes" (e.g., "Joe Adams likes Amazon!"). You might have Amazon promoting a user image of someone reading a Kindle on Instagram.
neya 14y ago
Whether they were going to sell the photos or not wasn't the issue, they just gave themselves the 'right' or 'possibility' to do so without anyone's consent. Either way, let me give you an analogy - You catch a someone red-handed trying to steal your belongings from your house. If you asked him what was he doing there, he's obviously going to defend himself. He would say anything but 'I'm here to steal your stuff.' In this case the burglar just said he's here for a cup of coffee, which to me seems too good to be true.
mongol 14y ago
I can't say that you are wrong but some of the criticism has been that the new conditions make it _possible_ for them to sell them, regardless of their "intention" as they state in the blog post.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
We may never know. There was so much backlash against their TOS changes they had to walk them back. And even if their original intent was to sell their users' images for use in ads then it would be in their interest to claim otherwise and pretend it was just a misunderstanding.
alexqgb 14y ago
Ok. You can start by properly reading the link you posted. Here's the opening line: "Yesterday we introduced a new version of our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service that will take effect in thirty days. These two documents help communicate as clearly as possible our relationship with the users of Instagram so you understand how your data will be used..." Key words: "These two documents help communicate AS CLEARLY AS POSSIBLE." Scroll down another three inches, and you'll find this gem: "Legal documents are easy to misinterpret." Well no shit. Privacy Policies and ToS agreements are notoriously opaque. But here's what's even harder to understand: a person who (correctly) thinks that documents like these are "easy to misinterpret" nevertheless asserts that they "help communicate as clearly as possible", and does so at the top of a blog post that is supposed to do what? Communicate MORE clearly than possible? Maybe all this can simply be chalked up to bad communication skills, a general lack of self-awareness, and a weak grasp of academic basics like logic and English. But most people don't regard freshly minted billionaires as idiots, and refuse to give them the benefit of the doubt. That's twice as true when the billion dollars come from someone who is widely seen as untrustworthy.
- SolarUpNote 14y ago
  This what I was referring to: "... it was interpreted by many that we were going to sell your photos to others without any compensation. This is not true and it is our mistake that this language is confusing. To be clear: it is not our intention to sell your photos. We are working on updated language in the terms to make sure this is clear." and this: "The language we proposed also raised question about whether your photos can be part of an advertisement. We do not have plans for anything like this and because of that we’re going to remove the language that raised the question." So it sounds like they never wanted to sell people's photos, or use them in advertisements. (which is what the major complaint was, right?)
  - alexqgb 14y ago
    Maybe, maybe not. We're simply taking them at their word. For all anyone outside the company knows, this was a stealth move designed to see how far the TOS could be pushed before the company decided what, exactly, they were going to do within whatever parameters they could get away with. After all, the real issue with becoming part of Facebook for $1 billion is that Instagram is reasonably assumed to be hard pressed to justify their price in a corporate structure famous for its own uncertain prospects and notorious lack of scruples. The other problem is that even now, they're still bullshitting, and indirectly blaming users for the fuss. In truth, there was nothing unclear or confusing about the language they used. To the contrary, it was explicitly clear. And what it said was awful. Even if the message conveyed wasn't what they intended, it's dishonest to to characterize the resulting uproar as "confusion". That wasn't confusion. That was justified fury aimed at a richly deserving target. Even now, they're still remain very unclear on the concepts of respect, integrity, and honesty. What they should have said was not "Thank you" (as if people's rage is a favor gladly bestowed), and "Hey, we're listening", (as if there was any doubt when their entire brand was headed for a cliff.) This is just more patronizing nonsense, which only exacerbates the mushrooming trust issue they've got on their hands. Instead, they should have said, in big bold letters at the very top "We're really Sorry! We just published something truly awful. In no way does it reflect our intentions, but none of you had any way of knowing that, so if we were in your position, we'd be just as furious as you are. Again, we screwed up the ToS - badly. We're scrapping that effort entirely. Please accept our very humble apologies. " Continuing, the should have noted "And that's not the only thing we screwed up. By failing to share our plans for the company with the community we rely on - in plain English, clearly, and up front - we left you no choice but to assume the worst when our train-wreck of a ToS update hit the internet. Furthermore, we've failed to account for the residual trust issues that our new owners at Facebook developed in their rapid growth phase, and which they are still dealing with today. We are now aware that we're a part of putting those concerns to rest, which means being especially careful with things like Privacy and IP. As noted, we weren't. Please believe us when we say that we've learned these lessons hard and fast, and that none of these problems will be problems again." At that point, they could do what they should have done from the very beginning, and clearly explain the (hopefully) non-abusive, non-sleazy way they intended to build a commercial service to the IP holders they rely on.

cryptoz 14y ago

I think you're agreeing with OP. The problem was never rooted in selling photos, the problem was Instagram's arrogance and willingness to sneak changes into the TOS without talking to the users. The changes themselves maybe didn't matter so much in this case as did their inability to communicate.

zmj 14y ago

That statement would be made regardless of their original intent. It isn't evidence in either direction.

logn 14y ago

"The language we proposed also raised question about whether your photos can be part of an advertisement. We do not have plans for anything like this and because of that we’re going to remove the language that raised the question" They admit right there that the TOS allowed for brands to feature user photos in ads. It's a nice cover to claim you never intended that, then if so why put it in TOS? Maybe the legal department got carried away, but more likely they envisioned photos being like Facebook "likes" (e.g., "Joe Adams likes Amazon!"). You might have Amazon promoting a user image of someone reading a Kindle on Instagram.

neya 14y ago

Whether they were going to sell the photos or not wasn't the issue, they just gave themselves the 'right' or 'possibility' to do so without anyone's consent. Either way, let me give you an analogy - You catch a someone red-handed trying to steal your belongings from your house. If you asked him what was he doing there, he's obviously going to defend himself. He would say anything but 'I'm here to steal your stuff.' In this case the burglar just said he's here for a cup of coffee, which to me seems too good to be true.

mongol 14y ago

I can't say that you are wrong but some of the criticism has been that the new conditions make it _possible_ for them to sell them, regardless of their "intention" as they state in the blog post.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

We may never know. There was so much backlash against their TOS changes they had to walk them back. And even if their original intent was to sell their users' images for use in ads then it would be in their interest to claim otherwise and pretend it was just a misunderstanding.

alexqgb 14y ago

Ok. You can start by properly reading the link you posted. Here's the opening line: "Yesterday we introduced a new version of our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service that will take effect in thirty days. These two documents help communicate as clearly as possible our relationship with the users of Instagram so you understand how your data will be used..." Key words: "These two documents help communicate AS CLEARLY AS POSSIBLE." Scroll down another three inches, and you'll find this gem: "Legal documents are easy to misinterpret." Well no shit. Privacy Policies and ToS agreements are notoriously opaque. But here's what's even harder to understand: a person who (correctly) thinks that documents like these are "easy to misinterpret" nevertheless asserts that they "help communicate as clearly as possible", and does so at the top of a blog post that is supposed to do what? Communicate MORE clearly than possible? Maybe all this can simply be chalked up to bad communication skills, a general lack of self-awareness, and a weak grasp of academic basics like logic and English. But most people don't regard freshly minted billionaires as idiots, and refuse to give them the benefit of the doubt. That's twice as true when the billion dollars come from someone who is widely seen as untrustworthy.

SolarUpNote 14y ago
This what I was referring to: "... it was interpreted by many that we were going to sell your photos to others without any compensation. This is not true and it is our mistake that this language is confusing. To be clear: it is not our intention to sell your photos. We are working on updated language in the terms to make sure this is clear." and this: "The language we proposed also raised question about whether your photos can be part of an advertisement. We do not have plans for anything like this and because of that we’re going to remove the language that raised the question." So it sounds like they never wanted to sell people's photos, or use them in advertisements. (which is what the major complaint was, right?)
- alexqgb 14y ago
  Maybe, maybe not. We're simply taking them at their word. For all anyone outside the company knows, this was a stealth move designed to see how far the TOS could be pushed before the company decided what, exactly, they were going to do within whatever parameters they could get away with. After all, the real issue with becoming part of Facebook for $1 billion is that Instagram is reasonably assumed to be hard pressed to justify their price in a corporate structure famous for its own uncertain prospects and notorious lack of scruples. The other problem is that even now, they're still bullshitting, and indirectly blaming users for the fuss. In truth, there was nothing unclear or confusing about the language they used. To the contrary, it was explicitly clear. And what it said was awful. Even if the message conveyed wasn't what they intended, it's dishonest to to characterize the resulting uproar as "confusion". That wasn't confusion. That was justified fury aimed at a richly deserving target. Even now, they're still remain very unclear on the concepts of respect, integrity, and honesty. What they should have said was not "Thank you" (as if people's rage is a favor gladly bestowed), and "Hey, we're listening", (as if there was any doubt when their entire brand was headed for a cliff.) This is just more patronizing nonsense, which only exacerbates the mushrooming trust issue they've got on their hands. Instead, they should have said, in big bold letters at the very top "We're really Sorry! We just published something truly awful. In no way does it reflect our intentions, but none of you had any way of knowing that, so if we were in your position, we'd be just as furious as you are. Again, we screwed up the ToS - badly. We're scrapping that effort entirely. Please accept our very humble apologies. " Continuing, the should have noted "And that's not the only thing we screwed up. By failing to share our plans for the company with the community we rely on - in plain English, clearly, and up front - we left you no choice but to assume the worst when our train-wreck of a ToS update hit the internet. Furthermore, we've failed to account for the residual trust issues that our new owners at Facebook developed in their rapid growth phase, and which they are still dealing with today. We are now aware that we're a part of putting those concerns to rest, which means being especially careful with things like Privacy and IP. As noted, we weren't. Please believe us when we say that we've learned these lessons hard and fast, and that none of these problems will be problems again." At that point, they could do what they should have done from the very beginning, and clearly explain the (hopefully) non-abusive, non-sleazy way they intended to build a commercial service to the IP holders they rely on.