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IMO it is a good thing that the USA is no longer paying for (among others): - NATO - Maintaining security on the high seas for other than USA shipping, - tari

IMO it is a good thing that the USA is no longer paying for (among others): - NATO - Maintaining security on the high seas for other than USA shipping, - tariffs imposed by other countries (yes, other countries have been imposing tariffs for decades): https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2025-03-17-qa-how-many-countries-had-tariffs-on-the-us-prior-to-trumps-tariffs/ https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2025-03-17-qa-how-many-count... The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!)

jacquesm 6d ago
Wow, how shortsighted. > - NATO - Maintaining security on the high seas for other than USA shipping, NATO consists of a lot of countries, why would they only work for USA shipping? And where do you think that shipping comes from? > - tariffs imposed by other countries (yes, other countries have been imposing tariffs for decades): Of course they do. But they're not usually idiots about it. > The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!) You advocate for tariffs but don't understand how tariffs work...
- giardini 5d ago
  I didn't "advocate for tariffs". I merely pointed out that other countries have had tariffs on USA goods for decades.
  - jacquesm 5d ago
    Yes, as does the USA. So your point is moot: tariffs are a tax on your own population, ostensibly to stimulate local manufacturing but in practice it is just another tax. Protectionists will immediately reach for this mechanism because they believe - in spite of all the evidence - that this time around it will work. It never does. Manufacturing is so intertwined now that all tariffs do is to reduce the buying power for those at the bottom of the totempole, whereas those higher up hardly feel any concrete effect. Whether other countries are stupid or not has no bearing on the discussion, that's just a distraction and the way the USA has been wielding tariffs over the last period is destructive in ways that will affect the country for decades to come.
    - giardini 5d ago
      jacquesm says "Whether other countries are stupid or not has no bearing on the discussion, that's just a distraction and the way the USA has been wielding tariffs over the last period is destructive in ways that will affect the country for decades to come." I said nothing of the kind. You are injecting that statement here yourself. --------------------------------------------- Returning to the topic of interest: Tariffs do work: they protect certain industries and keep them onshore. For instance the manufacture of nuclear warheads by the USA is an onshore industry and will remain so. I am certain that Japan or North Korea could eventually make a cheaper and probably even a better nuke but b/c I don't want to be forced to do periodic quality control tests and checks. The USA chooses to keep the industry here. But as far as I am concerned, I'd also like to keep hand tools as a protected onshore industry.
globalnode 6d ago
> The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!) I was feeling miserable reading this thread until I saw this, thanks for cheering me up.
dgellow 6d ago
> The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens How is that going? Any progress there? Are US citizens richer than they were before?
- swish-mish 6d ago
  [dead]
- 5upplied_demand 5d ago
  > Are US citizens richer than they were before? Some of them certainly are richer, specifically people with the last name Trump. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/13/trump-presidency-revenue-wealth https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/13/trump-presid...
- giardini 5d ago
  Well, the southeastern USA is going through a Renaissance of explosive growth b/c it is the intent to industrialize that region and recapture the USA lead in manufacturing. Maybe we can get you a job, dgellow, since your country is dwindling and predicted to actually disappear in a matter of decades: The End of Germany as a Modern Economy - Peter Zeihan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g
dam_jackalopes 6d ago
The USA can use that money that way. It's not though. Spending isn't decreasing and any savings in tax has easily been overwhelmed by the increased costs facing consumers, especially in the last two years.
arbitrary_name 5d ago
[flagged]
giardini 5d ago
I apologize: the first bullet of my post above should have been three separated line items instead of two. This has apparently caused great confusion. As usual, none of you spotted the error and, of course, several misinterpreted my scribbling to best suit their own malicious intents, much to my chagrin (though no surprise). I offer this rather late correction and apology: I so rarely make a mistake that I do not usually revisit a post but, in this case the piling on was merely too much to ignore. I shall try again: It is a good thing that the USA no longer intends to pay for: - NATO - Leaving NATO (STILL not done) would save the USA money! The USA pays approximately 16% of NATO's total budget and the USA is the largest spender on defense within the alliance, accounting for about 60% of NATO's total defense spending. - Security on the high seas was primarily the task of the US navy. That will no longer be so. - tariffs imposed by other countries (yes, other countries have been imposing tariffs for decades). https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2025-03-17-qa-how-many-countries-had-tariffs-on-the-us-prior-to-trumps-tariffs/ https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2025-03-17-qa-how-many-count... The USA can use the money saved from the above for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!).

jacquesm 6d ago

Wow, how shortsighted. > - NATO - Maintaining security on the high seas for other than USA shipping, NATO consists of a lot of countries, why would they only work for USA shipping? And where do you think that shipping comes from? > - tariffs imposed by other countries (yes, other countries have been imposing tariffs for decades): Of course they do. But they're not usually idiots about it. > The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!) You advocate for tariffs but don't understand how tariffs work...

giardini 5d ago
I didn't "advocate for tariffs". I merely pointed out that other countries have had tariffs on USA goods for decades.
- jacquesm 5d ago
  Yes, as does the USA. So your point is moot: tariffs are a tax on your own population, ostensibly to stimulate local manufacturing but in practice it is just another tax. Protectionists will immediately reach for this mechanism because they believe - in spite of all the evidence - that this time around it will work. It never does. Manufacturing is so intertwined now that all tariffs do is to reduce the buying power for those at the bottom of the totempole, whereas those higher up hardly feel any concrete effect. Whether other countries are stupid or not has no bearing on the discussion, that's just a distraction and the way the USA has been wielding tariffs over the last period is destructive in ways that will affect the country for decades to come.
  - giardini 5d ago
    jacquesm says "Whether other countries are stupid or not has no bearing on the discussion, that's just a distraction and the way the USA has been wielding tariffs over the last period is destructive in ways that will affect the country for decades to come." I said nothing of the kind. You are injecting that statement here yourself. --------------------------------------------- Returning to the topic of interest: Tariffs do work: they protect certain industries and keep them onshore. For instance the manufacture of nuclear warheads by the USA is an onshore industry and will remain so. I am certain that Japan or North Korea could eventually make a cheaper and probably even a better nuke but b/c I don't want to be forced to do periodic quality control tests and checks. The USA chooses to keep the industry here. But as far as I am concerned, I'd also like to keep hand tools as a protected onshore industry.

globalnode 6d ago

> The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!) I was feeling miserable reading this thread until I saw this, thanks for cheering me up.

dgellow 6d ago

> The USA can use the money saved for its own citizens How is that going? Any progress there? Are US citizens richer than they were before?

swish-mish 6d ago
[dead]
5upplied_demand 5d ago
> Are US citizens richer than they were before? Some of them certainly are richer, specifically people with the last name Trump. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/13/trump-presidency-revenue-wealth https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/13/trump-presid...
giardini 5d ago
Well, the southeastern USA is going through a Renaissance of explosive growth b/c it is the intent to industrialize that region and recapture the USA lead in manufacturing. Maybe we can get you a job, dgellow, since your country is dwindling and predicted to actually disappear in a matter of decades: The End of Germany as a Modern Economy - Peter Zeihan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g

dam_jackalopes 6d ago

The USA can use that money that way. It's not though. Spending isn't decreasing and any savings in tax has easily been overwhelmed by the increased costs facing consumers, especially in the last two years.

arbitrary_name 5d ago

[flagged]

giardini 5d ago

I apologize: the first bullet of my post above should have been three separated line items instead of two. This has apparently caused great confusion. As usual, none of you spotted the error and, of course, several misinterpreted my scribbling to best suit their own malicious intents, much to my chagrin (though no surprise). I offer this rather late correction and apology: I so rarely make a mistake that I do not usually revisit a post but, in this case the piling on was merely too much to ignore. I shall try again: It is a good thing that the USA no longer intends to pay for: - NATO - Leaving NATO (STILL not done) would save the USA money! The USA pays approximately 16% of NATO's total budget and the USA is the largest spender on defense within the alliance, accounting for about 60% of NATO's total defense spending. - Security on the high seas was primarily the task of the US navy. That will no longer be so. - tariffs imposed by other countries (yes, other countries have been imposing tariffs for decades). https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2025-03-17-qa-how-many-countries-had-tariffs-on-the-us-prior-to-trumps-tariffs/ https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2025-03-17-qa-how-many-count... The USA can use the money saved from the above for its own citizens (possibly even lowering their taxes!).