5 ms·

I have other memories when I was 4, and talked about them with my parents years later. Another significant one is I wandered away and got lost in London, and so

I have other memories when I was 4, and talked about them with my parents years later. Another significant one is I wandered away and got lost in London, and some cops noticed me and picked me up and took me to the station. My parents filled in some details, some of which I did not remember. And yeah, I remember the emotions I felt.

Timon3 5d ago
I don't doubt that you have memories from when you were 4, I have memories from that time too. And I'm sure you felt the shame you described. But I know that it's impossible for a 4-year-old to accurately decipher why they feel shame when they do! You disagreed with sevenzero when they claimed that concepts like violence and right and wrong are actively taught by parents instead of being innate to children. Assuming you read all three lines of sevenzero's comment before disagreeing: the perspective of your 4-year-old self is not a reliable source, because 4-year-old children cannot accurately differentiate between innate or taught feelings.
- WalterBright 5d ago
  I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong.
  - Timon3 5d ago
    > I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. How could a person who was taught social concepts of right and wrong since birth ever hope to reliably determine which parts of said concepts in their own mind are innate, and which aren't? Human minds are infamous for being terrible at introspecting their own mechanisms at the best of times. > I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong. Unless said very young people were raised by wolves, chances are that they've been taught these concepts since birth as well. You can't determine the innateness by only looking at people who share this bias.
    - WalterBright 5d ago
      Some animals are social in behavior, others are not. Humans are social animals. Why would one believe that social behavior is learned, not inherited? Selective breeding of foxes has turned them into social animals.
      - Timon3 4d ago
        Because we have proof that humans who aren't taught a subset of social behaviors never show any of them. It doesn't matter what we've bred foxes to do - "sense of right and wrong" is not the same as "social behavior", and innate traits in one species can be non-innate in another. You cannot analyze a cantaloupe to determine the taste of bananas, no matter how hard you try. It is important to understand our own human limits. We cannot reason our way through our own minds, we can only accept our biases and try to work around them. But the first step is being humble enough to accept that human intuition is no substitute for actual research.

Timon3 5d ago

I don't doubt that you have memories from when you were 4, I have memories from that time too. And I'm sure you felt the shame you described. But I know that it's impossible for a 4-year-old to accurately decipher why they feel shame when they do! You disagreed with sevenzero when they claimed that concepts like violence and right and wrong are actively taught by parents instead of being innate to children. Assuming you read all three lines of sevenzero's comment before disagreeing: the perspective of your 4-year-old self is not a reliable source, because 4-year-old children cannot accurately differentiate between innate or taught feelings.

WalterBright 5d ago
I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong.
- Timon3 5d ago
  > I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. How could a person who was taught social concepts of right and wrong since birth ever hope to reliably determine which parts of said concepts in their own mind are innate, and which aren't? Human minds are infamous for being terrible at introspecting their own mechanisms at the best of times. > I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong. Unless said very young people were raised by wolves, chances are that they've been taught these concepts since birth as well. You can't determine the innateness by only looking at people who share this bias.
  - WalterBright 5d ago
    Some animals are social in behavior, others are not. Humans are social animals. Why would one believe that social behavior is learned, not inherited? Selective breeding of foxes has turned them into social animals.
    - Timon3 4d ago
      Because we have proof that humans who aren't taught a subset of social behaviors never show any of them. It doesn't matter what we've bred foxes to do - "sense of right and wrong" is not the same as "social behavior", and innate traits in one species can be non-innate in another. You cannot analyze a cantaloupe to determine the taste of bananas, no matter how hard you try. It is important to understand our own human limits. We cannot reason our way through our own minds, we can only accept our biases and try to work around them. But the first step is being humble enough to accept that human intuition is no substitute for actual research.