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Thanks for the insight here. One thing to note about the first graph: nobody is doing as well as the first part on tool calling, and it's not close. This migh
by epistasis 5d ago
Thanks for the insight here.
One thing to note about the first graph: nobody is doing as well as the first part on tool calling, and it's not close.
This might be the fault of the other providers, but it's probably just something slightly different that the first party does with the model inference program than anybody else, and that's not sure to weights it's due to vLLM twiddling (or whatever) and probably becuase the first part actually uses their own customized inference program rather than the standard methods that all the third party providers use. This isn't nefarious, it's just the challenge of these sorts of stochastic systems.
Having been in science for decades now, and seen benchmarking across many different fields, these results are completely expected for me. LLM serving is not mechanical, it's hard to get right and has lots of unknown footguns. Even something as extreme as scrambling a matrix will still likely get results that are nearly as good as normal, and if there's a bug deep in vLLM or the tensors metadata that results in that, then it's going to be pretty hard to find unless you're an active researcher with knowledge of the particular model you're running inference on. I kind of doubt that's happening here, but maybe!
In the scientific literature, when benchmarking methods, everybody's own method performs best in their own hands. Some attribute it to researchers gaming benchmarking for publication purposes, but I think it's just what we see here: the people who made a method are just the best at using it because they know all the quirks and use it best.
Programmers are not used to thinking with that nuance, and jump to conclusions about lying about quantizations, etc., but this is really just an unavoidable part of AI/ML methods: when things aren't perfect they're still pretty good and it's going to take the model creator to truly debug it. At least until the open weights ecosystem gets a lot better at ensuring reproducibility, and model cards are nowhere detailed enough for that to happen yet.
- ndr_ 5d agoThis matches what I found experimentally with gpt-oss-20b during OpenAI's red-teaming challenge. After moving from hosted inference to running the model myself on rented H100s via vast.ai, I saw the model refuse the same kinds of prompts at noticeably different rates depending on the inference stack — differences of roughly 5–10 percentage points with otherwise identical experimental parameters and seeds. So I very much agree that this isn't necessarily about providers secretly changing the weights. For reproducible work, the serving stack - engine, version, hardware, configuration, and probably more - really belongs in the methodology alongside the model itself. I wrote up the results here: “In AI Sweet Harmony” (arXiv:2510.01259).
- epistasis 4d agoGreat concrete experience! I'd love to see some published token log_probs for given prompts and seeds that accompany a model card. Not sure if that's enough, thigh. But then it's been so long since I dealt with the api directly that I don't even know if modern models show the top tokens and probabilities any more.
- dang 4d agoCan you please not post AI-generated or AI-edited comments to HN? It's not allowed here - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#generated https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#generated and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47340079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47340079. Of course, it's impossible to know for sure what was LLM processed or not, but some of your posts (like this one) have been getting classified that way. (And if this was a false positive, I apologize!)