7 ms·

Shame is also a form of social control. Be ashamed you don't know your place, lower class person. Lack of required shame used to be called being "uppity".

passwordoops 6d ago
Like most things in life, moderation is key
- pfdietz 6d ago
  Consistency is also important. Making arbitrary distinctions just to cloak personal preferences is hypocritical.
toasty228 6d ago
I'll tell that to the dude who pees in my staircase every other week, I must be just confused and too rich to understand.
- pfdietz 6d ago
  That's causing objective damage. We don't invoke shame for behaviors that cause that.
  - classified 6d ago
    You don't? Shame on you.
- belorn 6d ago
  Different countries must have different standards for that. Here, the result would be that the person owning the staircase would call a cleaning firm and then send the bill to the person, in combination with a warning that eviction may happen if further misuses of the property occur. If it happened every other week, the person would be evicted, and I suspect the bills from the cleaning company would be enough to make that happen regardless. If they couldn't identity the person they would setup cameras or a passage system to identity who uses the staircase until the problem can be solved. The law here allows apartment owners to setup cameras in the case of resolving problems with property and shared spaces. For example, in my building there are cameras in the garage and the garbage room, and entry require tags that get recorded when opening the door. Those intrusive actions where done to address past theft and misbehavior which in turn cost money to the company who own the building.
  - iamnothere 5d ago
    The end result of this is that every place becomes locked down and covered in cameras, which is very expensive, and which also kills off the few remaining quasi-public (privately owned but freely accessible) spaces. All because we couldn’t figure out how to help or manage people with problems. Not every society is like this.
classified 6d ago
Being uppity to your betters is one thing. Being inconsiderate towards everyone is something else.
dguest 6d ago
The article is all about people in positions of power, not lower class people.
K0balt 6d ago
Shame is an internalised negative emotion that is a negative anticipation of social stigma. In general, it is a usefulness in thing. If you can’t look back at your behaviour a few years ago and find a source of secret embarrassment, you probably aren’t growing. The framing of shame as a bad thing instead of an important mechanism of self regulation is destroying maturity and social cooperation at an obscene rate, and future generations will be the ones that pay the price in a society where government has stepped in with coercive force to moderate behaviour at a much more granular level in a society that no longer governs itself. In this it is important to distinguish between shame and shaming. Shame is the useful mechanism of self regulation. Shaming is social aggression and is all too frequently hijacked by astroturfed “social movements” and vile and petty narcissists to project power. Shaming has its place, but needs to be legitimate social sanction or it’s just another form of unregulated violence. Unfortunately, the reaction of society has been to reject shame, which is about as useful as rejecting fear, for example. Fear is a useful and necessary mechanism of self regulation, and people that lack it entirely tend to live short lives. That said, too much is crippling. Shame is much the same, but is a social contract. Societies that lack it tend to fail. Societies with too much are stifling. Fortunately, now we have the CCP and Palintir, so we can shrug off the yoke of shame and give up over that mechanism of self regulation to social credit scores and surveillance capitalism. I’m not sure that will be so much better. Treasure your shame. I’ve lived in societies where it has been replaced by violence, and it’s not better.

passwordoops 6d ago

Like most things in life, moderation is key

pfdietz 6d ago
Consistency is also important. Making arbitrary distinctions just to cloak personal preferences is hypocritical.

toasty228 6d ago

I'll tell that to the dude who pees in my staircase every other week, I must be just confused and too rich to understand.

pfdietz 6d ago
That's causing objective damage. We don't invoke shame for behaviors that cause that.
- classified 6d ago
  You don't? Shame on you.
belorn 6d ago
Different countries must have different standards for that. Here, the result would be that the person owning the staircase would call a cleaning firm and then send the bill to the person, in combination with a warning that eviction may happen if further misuses of the property occur. If it happened every other week, the person would be evicted, and I suspect the bills from the cleaning company would be enough to make that happen regardless. If they couldn't identity the person they would setup cameras or a passage system to identity who uses the staircase until the problem can be solved. The law here allows apartment owners to setup cameras in the case of resolving problems with property and shared spaces. For example, in my building there are cameras in the garage and the garbage room, and entry require tags that get recorded when opening the door. Those intrusive actions where done to address past theft and misbehavior which in turn cost money to the company who own the building.
- iamnothere 5d ago
  The end result of this is that every place becomes locked down and covered in cameras, which is very expensive, and which also kills off the few remaining quasi-public (privately owned but freely accessible) spaces. All because we couldn’t figure out how to help or manage people with problems. Not every society is like this.

classified 6d ago

Being uppity to your betters is one thing. Being inconsiderate towards everyone is something else.

dguest 6d ago

The article is all about people in positions of power, not lower class people.

K0balt 6d ago

Shame is an internalised negative emotion that is a negative anticipation of social stigma. In general, it is a usefulness in thing. If you can’t look back at your behaviour a few years ago and find a source of secret embarrassment, you probably aren’t growing. The framing of shame as a bad thing instead of an important mechanism of self regulation is destroying maturity and social cooperation at an obscene rate, and future generations will be the ones that pay the price in a society where government has stepped in with coercive force to moderate behaviour at a much more granular level in a society that no longer governs itself. In this it is important to distinguish between shame and shaming. Shame is the useful mechanism of self regulation. Shaming is social aggression and is all too frequently hijacked by astroturfed “social movements” and vile and petty narcissists to project power. Shaming has its place, but needs to be legitimate social sanction or it’s just another form of unregulated violence. Unfortunately, the reaction of society has been to reject shame, which is about as useful as rejecting fear, for example. Fear is a useful and necessary mechanism of self regulation, and people that lack it entirely tend to live short lives. That said, too much is crippling. Shame is much the same, but is a social contract. Societies that lack it tend to fail. Societies with too much are stifling. Fortunately, now we have the CCP and Palintir, so we can shrug off the yoke of shame and give up over that mechanism of self regulation to social credit scores and surveillance capitalism. I’m not sure that will be so much better. Treasure your shame. I’ve lived in societies where it has been replaced by violence, and it’s not better.