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It's quite funny how Trump is killing European industry. Literally everything America has been doing the last few years has benefited China. The Chinese econom

It's quite funny how Trump is killing European industry. Literally everything America has been doing the last few years has benefited China. The Chinese economy has real weaknesses make no mistake about it and a competent US leader could have worked with his global allies to exploit them.

cpursley 5d ago
They started that path to economic suicide by deciding they don't want cheap gas as well as shutting down reactors. Well, depending on your geopolitical beliefs, entire situation was possibility coordinated to get Europe on American LNG and off the stuff piped from Rusland and the Middle East. This was all in play well before Orange Man, but wow did he push the gas pedal down and accelerate it (pun intended). BTW there's only one way out of it, but many Europeans aren't going to like the medicine nor the global primacy people running the USA.
- yolo3000 5d ago
  Cheap gas from the Russians? No thank you
  - deleted 5d ago
    [deleted]
- johneth 5d ago
  > they don't want cheap gas You don't strengthen an enemy (Russia) by buying their products. Defence is more important. > as well as shutting down reactors A German problem, not a wider European one. The solution is to accelerate the transition into electric vehicles (including HGVs etc.), renewable energy, and nuclear. Oil is obviously still needed for materials production, air fuel, and so on, but extricating ourselves from situations where oil is becoming optional as fast as possible is the best course, not continuing to buy cheap gas from an aggressive neighbour that's fucking your elections and invading its neighbour.
  - deleted 5d ago
    [deleted]
- the_why_of_y 5d ago
  Orange Man was elected in 2015. Europeans decided to construct Nord Stream 2 to completion (finished 2021, but never certified for operation). Nord Stream 1 was shut down by Russia in 2022. Turk Stream pipeline (from Russia to Bulgaria) finished construction/began operation in 2020.
  - cpursley 5d ago
    Turk Stream goes to Turkey, original plans to Bulgarian were canceled.
    - the_why_of_y 5d ago
      Both of your statements are technically true (the cancelled pipeline was called South Stream). Also true is that another pipeline called Balkan Stream connects to Turk Stream to transport the Russian gas into Bulgaria, Serbia, and Hungary, and went into operation in 2021. https://n1info.rs/english/news/balkan-stream-gas-pipeline-opens-through-serbia/ https://n1info.rs/english/news/balkan-stream-gas-pipeline-op...
      - cpursley 5d ago
        That's right, South Stream. Thanks!
epolanski 5d ago
As an European, trust me, Trump has little to do with it. We've been doing fine championing our nationalism instead of creating a strong internal market. Because Hungarians decide in Hungary and Spaniards in Spain doing business across Europe is still very tough. So to transport anything from Austria to Hungary you need to fill all the kind of paperwork and find the appropriate codes. And to sell it, even more complicated. And taxation? Don't get me started. And it doesn't help most of our economies are all export economies, which is a broken economic model where you just keep hemorraging stuff and your people stays relatively poor.
- disgruntledphd2 5d ago
  > And it doesn't help most of our economies are all export economies, The worst part of all this is that becoming more export focused was pushed heavily by Germany during the euro crisis, and now its causing more problems. Honestly, I'm coming round to the notion that Angela Merkel was literally wrong on everything she ever touched. Mind you, German political culture consistently makes the wrong decisions (basically in hock to the ICE car industry, which has aged badly).
  - epolanski 5d ago
    > Honestly, I'm coming round to the notion that Angela Merkel was literally wrong on everything she ever touched. In a world where the Russo-Ukrainian conflict doesn't happen she was fine. In a world where it does, suddenly an export economy hungry for materials and energy suffers the lack of Russia.
    - disgruntledphd2 5d ago
      > In a world where the Russo-Ukrainian conflict doesn't happen she was fine. The German (so not just her) position on the post financial crisis reforms were wildly misguided, and her taking in of Syrian immigrants also didn't end well. I think that shutting down the nuclear plants would also have been recognised as a bad idea, even without the war.
toasty228 5d ago
Looking at physical markers Europe has been in degrowth for 20 years, less things produced, less sqm of new building, less tonnes transported by freight, the GDP is saved by maths tricks and hopium

cpursley 5d ago

They started that path to economic suicide by deciding they don't want cheap gas as well as shutting down reactors. Well, depending on your geopolitical beliefs, entire situation was possibility coordinated to get Europe on American LNG and off the stuff piped from Rusland and the Middle East. This was all in play well before Orange Man, but wow did he push the gas pedal down and accelerate it (pun intended). BTW there's only one way out of it, but many Europeans aren't going to like the medicine nor the global primacy people running the USA.

yolo3000 5d ago
Cheap gas from the Russians? No thank you
- deleted 5d ago
  [deleted]
johneth 5d ago
> they don't want cheap gas You don't strengthen an enemy (Russia) by buying their products. Defence is more important. > as well as shutting down reactors A German problem, not a wider European one. The solution is to accelerate the transition into electric vehicles (including HGVs etc.), renewable energy, and nuclear. Oil is obviously still needed for materials production, air fuel, and so on, but extricating ourselves from situations where oil is becoming optional as fast as possible is the best course, not continuing to buy cheap gas from an aggressive neighbour that's fucking your elections and invading its neighbour.
- deleted 5d ago
  [deleted]
the_why_of_y 5d ago
Orange Man was elected in 2015. Europeans decided to construct Nord Stream 2 to completion (finished 2021, but never certified for operation). Nord Stream 1 was shut down by Russia in 2022. Turk Stream pipeline (from Russia to Bulgaria) finished construction/began operation in 2020.
- cpursley 5d ago
  Turk Stream goes to Turkey, original plans to Bulgarian were canceled.
  - the_why_of_y 5d ago
    Both of your statements are technically true (the cancelled pipeline was called South Stream). Also true is that another pipeline called Balkan Stream connects to Turk Stream to transport the Russian gas into Bulgaria, Serbia, and Hungary, and went into operation in 2021. https://n1info.rs/english/news/balkan-stream-gas-pipeline-opens-through-serbia/ https://n1info.rs/english/news/balkan-stream-gas-pipeline-op...
    - cpursley 5d ago
      That's right, South Stream. Thanks!

epolanski 5d ago

As an European, trust me, Trump has little to do with it. We've been doing fine championing our nationalism instead of creating a strong internal market. Because Hungarians decide in Hungary and Spaniards in Spain doing business across Europe is still very tough. So to transport anything from Austria to Hungary you need to fill all the kind of paperwork and find the appropriate codes. And to sell it, even more complicated. And taxation? Don't get me started. And it doesn't help most of our economies are all export economies, which is a broken economic model where you just keep hemorraging stuff and your people stays relatively poor.

disgruntledphd2 5d ago
> And it doesn't help most of our economies are all export economies, The worst part of all this is that becoming more export focused was pushed heavily by Germany during the euro crisis, and now its causing more problems. Honestly, I'm coming round to the notion that Angela Merkel was literally wrong on everything she ever touched. Mind you, German political culture consistently makes the wrong decisions (basically in hock to the ICE car industry, which has aged badly).
- epolanski 5d ago
  > Honestly, I'm coming round to the notion that Angela Merkel was literally wrong on everything she ever touched. In a world where the Russo-Ukrainian conflict doesn't happen she was fine. In a world where it does, suddenly an export economy hungry for materials and energy suffers the lack of Russia.
  - disgruntledphd2 5d ago
    > In a world where the Russo-Ukrainian conflict doesn't happen she was fine. The German (so not just her) position on the post financial crisis reforms were wildly misguided, and her taking in of Syrian immigrants also didn't end well. I think that shutting down the nuclear plants would also have been recognised as a bad idea, even without the war.

toasty228 5d ago

Looking at physical markers Europe has been in degrowth for 20 years, less things produced, less sqm of new building, less tonnes transported by freight, the GDP is saved by maths tricks and hopium