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Unless they just swiped the workbooks of the actual mathematicians that where working on the problem using AI and it's in the "next-gen" training dataset.

by kpil 6d ago

dumberquestions 6d ago
You do realize that regardless of what was in the training data, the final solution included insights no human before had known, right? I share the same concerns regarding academic integrity but it would take a lot of motivated thinking to conclude that what the AI system did was not significant.
- jamiejquinn 6d ago
  As far as I can tell (and my research was on the simulation side of Navier Stokes) the key AI output was a specific counter-example solution, generated with a method suspiciously close to that developed by the research duo involved in the controversy, a method that was discussed with Codex. So to me that insight is as insightful as the next undiscovered prime.
boshalfoshal 6d ago
I don't get how this invalidates the gravity of this achievement. Most mathematicians on the frontier of this stuff were likely using AI (or at the very least were heavily computer assisted) for some time now. Navier stokes was one of the very high profile problems that google Deepmind was working on with academia, for example. Even with many of our best minds working on it for nearly a century, it _just_ now was solved just as AI became very good at math. Doesn't seem too farfetched to me to assume that AI played an outsized role in solving it. If it was really just a matter of "stitching things together" to solve it (granted, this is a very reductive way to look at it) , I suspect we would've solved this a while ago.
- kpil 6d ago
  There is a certain difference between activating all relevant memoized facts that's in the weights and stringing them together with the help of all the stored text in the world, or displaying genuinely emergent behaviour and generating novel output. One is really impressive and useful trick, one is AGI. Apple's research show almost zero emergent behaviour, so I'm inclined to think most of it was already in the weights. It doesn't take away the usefulness, it just defined the boundary. We can't expect "original research" then because it actually can't reason about concepts that are too far from whats already in the discourse. The discourse is big so we don't notice.
contravariant 6d ago
In a way that works just as well but the incentives are messed up. And that's before we get into the whole 'salt the earth' way they ended up solving it. For a short period of time it may well have been the least valuable proof in mathematics yet. In their haste it's dubious they actually read the proof, and I don't think anyone has had time yet to truly understand it (the original researchers are best placed to do so, but are they even willing?). So now it is solved, the proof has been independently verified and nobody has an incentive to investigate further. OpenAI has spent millions to uncover 1 bit of information that so far nobody has learned anything from, and they've demotivated all the people who wanted to.
- MarkusQ 6d ago
  This. The point of these problems is the understanding / tooling gained in solving them. We're getting none of that. At best they are like a modern oracles, correctly answering your questions in a way that's doesn't help you any. (At worst,...)

Unless they just swiped the workbooks of the actual mathematicians that where working on the problem using AI and it's in the "next-gen" training dataset.

by kpil 6d ago

Unless they just swiped the workbooks of the actual mathematicians that where working on the problem using AI and it's in the "next-gen" training dataset.

dumberquestions 6d ago

You do realize that regardless of what was in the training data, the final solution included insights no human before had known, right? I share the same concerns regarding academic integrity but it would take a lot of motivated thinking to conclude that what the AI system did was not significant.

jamiejquinn 6d ago
As far as I can tell (and my research was on the simulation side of Navier Stokes) the key AI output was a specific counter-example solution, generated with a method suspiciously close to that developed by the research duo involved in the controversy, a method that was discussed with Codex. So to me that insight is as insightful as the next undiscovered prime.

boshalfoshal 6d ago

I don't get how this invalidates the gravity of this achievement. Most mathematicians on the frontier of this stuff were likely using AI (or at the very least were heavily computer assisted) for some time now. Navier stokes was one of the very high profile problems that google Deepmind was working on with academia, for example. Even with many of our best minds working on it for nearly a century, it _just_ now was solved just as AI became very good at math. Doesn't seem too farfetched to me to assume that AI played an outsized role in solving it. If it was really just a matter of "stitching things together" to solve it (granted, this is a very reductive way to look at it) , I suspect we would've solved this a while ago.

kpil 6d ago
There is a certain difference between activating all relevant memoized facts that's in the weights and stringing them together with the help of all the stored text in the world, or displaying genuinely emergent behaviour and generating novel output. One is really impressive and useful trick, one is AGI. Apple's research show almost zero emergent behaviour, so I'm inclined to think most of it was already in the weights. It doesn't take away the usefulness, it just defined the boundary. We can't expect "original research" then because it actually can't reason about concepts that are too far from whats already in the discourse. The discourse is big so we don't notice.

contravariant 6d ago

In a way that works just as well but the incentives are messed up. And that's before we get into the whole 'salt the earth' way they ended up solving it. For a short period of time it may well have been the least valuable proof in mathematics yet. In their haste it's dubious they actually read the proof, and I don't think anyone has had time yet to truly understand it (the original researchers are best placed to do so, but are they even willing?). So now it is solved, the proof has been independently verified and nobody has an incentive to investigate further. OpenAI has spent millions to uncover 1 bit of information that so far nobody has learned anything from, and they've demotivated all the people who wanted to.

MarkusQ 6d ago
This. The point of these problems is the understanding / tooling gained in solving them. We're getting none of that. At best they are like a modern oracles, correctly answering your questions in a way that's doesn't help you any. (At worst,...)