5 ms·

Am I the only one who thinks that the classic music notation is 3x harder to learn than the basic music theory (without the rules of notation)? I think that yo

Am I the only one who thinks that the classic music notation is 3x harder to learn than the basic music theory (without the rules of notation)? I think that you can learn music theory (to play an instrument or to compose music e.g. in a "piano roll tool" / MIDI editor) much faster if you skip the classic notation. And I think that it is even better to learn the notation AFTER you understand the music theory. I even made my own guide to music :D https://www.jampea.com/learn https://www.jampea.com/learn

bonzini 6d ago
https://youtu.be/Eq3bUFgEcb4 https://youtu.be/Eq3bUFgEcb4 explains why music notation is the way it is. There are very good reasons for it. The parts that are really weird (like the C clef) have mostly been obsoleted, unless you play the viola I guess.
- song_synth 6d ago
  love that video, it made me lol so hard the first time I saw it :D Classical composer and software engineer here. One of my goals is to help update score notation. I use something called "harmonic coloring" which is like a reduced MIDI notation: You color a note by its functional role (harmonic value) rather than an arbitrary hue in 0-11. What this view shares with MIDI: Long rectangles representing the applied durations. How it is different: Occupies a minimal amount vertical space. The color palette I'm using is intended to support people with colorblindness. The shades/hues of a color encodes the functional harmony. The root key signature (origin) is always the same color; and chords some distance r away on the circle of fifths is the shade/hue at that offset r. There is a similar concept described in the Tantacruel video towards the end. You can explore it here on Monic Theory. (mobile view should be fixed within 48 hours) https://monictheory.com/project-templates https://monictheory.com/project-templates
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
    Note that in historical Byzantine musical culture, there are no absolute pitches at all. Their notational form is entirely intervals from some arbitrary root note. Similarly, in Carnatic and Hindustani classical traditions, the note names (Sa, Re, Pa etc) do not denote pitches - Sa is always the root, whatever it is, and the rest have a somewhat well defined intervallic relationship to it. I personally would not use "harmonic value" to describe this, since it occurs in music that (broadly speaking) lacks harmony. The key point, IMO, is that what matters are sets of intervals (ratios, if you prefer) rather than actual pitches (as frequencies).
    - aanet 6d ago
      ^^ THIS Hindustani (and Carnatic) music indeed do not denote pitches for a very sound (pun intended) reason: They let singers choose the root note (Sa), and thereupon the melody is built. Most (all?) of Hindustani music is melody-based, not harmonic based (like Western music). And the melodies are themselves created within the Raga framework. Raga is like a mode (but not exactly that), and is hard to explain within the constraints of Western music theory precisely because that concept does not exist in western music per se. Which is why most Indian classical theorists call a raga a "melodic framework", and leave it at that (or expound on it, as the case may be). A great reference for Indian classical music is [1] and and more recent one [2] [1] The Ragas of North Indian Music, N.A. Jairazbhoy, https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.26725 https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.26725 [2] Rāgs Around the Clock, A Handbook for North Indian Classical Music, with Online Recordings in the Khayāl Style, https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0313#resources https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0313#r...
      - song_synth 6d ago
        much love for the Just Intonation in the house
    - mrob 6d ago
      Actual frequencies matter in bass-focused dance music. You want a root note around 40Hz to 60Hz, which is high enough that it's easily heard and reproduced, but not so high that it loses the tactile body-shaking effect.
- jaggirs 6d ago
  I suppose it makes historical sense, and even ingeniously designed. But it, and the piano black keys with it, are definitely not optimal. It makes playing in C easy, and playing in anything else hard. I've picked up a new instrument since ~2 months, and 1 month in I could already play all scales by by deliberately staying away from music notation, learning the raw distances/steps that make up a scale and how to play them, rather than the 'delta from C', which is how classical training taught me to think. (Same story for chords etc)
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
    I have some great news: you're a nerd ! :)) ... or is it geek, i can never remember the difference ...
  - BalinKing 6d ago
    > But it, and the piano black keys with it, are definitely not optimal. It makes playing in C easy, and playing in anything else hard. I don't think this is true—I was under the impression that, at least on piano, keys other than C major are sometimes chosen specifically to make things easier on the fingers.
    - jaggirs 6d ago
      Easier on the fingers - maybe (I don't know what you reference), but not easier on the mind: Instead of learning each chord once, you have to learn it 12 times (for each key). See http://terpstrakeyboard.com/about/ http://terpstrakeyboard.com/about/
- jerf 6d ago
  It kind of reminds me of the periodic declaration someone makes on HN that textual programming sucks and we all need to switch to something else, usually visual programming in this case. If someone takes time to deeply understand the advantages of the textual approach and then builds an alternative, I'll listen. But at this point, anyone who is doing this and their criticism of the original approach is shallow and uninsightful, where it's basically just "it's old and it must therefore suck", is unlikely to produce a good answer. I think that applies to the music notation case too. "Conventional" music notation isn't just a staff and a couple of types of notes. By the time you handle all the use cases that conventional notation handles, or even just a solid subset of it, your brand new notation is probably a lot less elegant than it started out as in someone's head.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6d ago
    Exactly. Music theory is a programming language for musical composition and performance. Unlike most languages it's inherently two dimensional because music includes both horizontal (time, rhythm) and vertical pitches (chords/colours, harmony) information. And - especially important - melody is an element that needs both. You can't represent the same information with text without losing a lot of important content, which is why toys like Sonic Pi are more limited than they seem. You can kinda sorta represent the same information on a piano roll, but it's not any easier to read than dots - in some ways harder, because you're not going to see the relationship between a bass line and chords as clearly. Is it a good programming language? It's quite dense, but not denser than some code idioms. The 2D element is unique, and hard to represent in other ways. The learning curve is steep, but it's probably as good as it can be given the requirements and constraints.
    - bluGill 6d ago
      Don't forget about the dynamics (loud or soft) dimension of music.
    - otabdeveloper4 6d ago
      > Exactly. Music theory is a programming language for musical composition and performance. Not really. Here in the 21st century people mostly use DAWs, and there's a piano roll inside that thing instead of staff notation.
- bitbckt 6d ago
  As a semi-professional trombonist, C clefs are very important to me. Alto and tenor as-written, tenor as a means of transposing Bb treble, mezzo-soprano as a means of transposing F parts… they are not obsolete.
  - totallymike 6d ago
    My favorite genre of hacker news comment is when someone lacks sufficient imagination to wonder why something that’s commonly used by many people is still in use
    - bonzini 6d ago
      FWIW, there's no real need for imagination here. The comment says "mostly", and added a parenthetical comment that was simply meant to name the viola as a prominent remaining use. In particular, trombones have almost entirely stopped using the tenor clef in jazz.
      - bitbckt 5d ago
        It's true that jazz charts are unlikely to use tenor clef. Nonetheless, it remains career limiting for a trombonist to be unable to read clefs. Commercial players are likely to use the skill for transposing Bb treble lead sheets, or playing in a pit. Tenor clef shows up in modern musicals regularly. Not to mention being shunned from quartet or choir opportunities that are the basis of networking in the industry.
        bonzini 5d ago
        Transposing is an important skill for all instruments. It's true that trombonists get some cases for free if they learn the tenor and alto clefs, but it's possible to learn it without knowing the C clefs. And even trombonists have to learn how to handle sharps and flats in chromatic passages, so there's a lot more to transposing than using a different clef. > Tenor clef shows up in modern musicals regularly. This I didn't know, thanks!
  - 6d ago
Hunpeter 6d ago
This is a bit off topic, but since you mentioned your guide: I hope this doesn't come off as hostile, but the guide you linked contains a number of inaccuracies and oversimplifications - it's kind of naive in an endearing way, but also leaves the reader with the impression that it covers all there is to music. I guess what I'm saying is it's fine to restrict yourself in what you include in the guide, or even simplify things, but it should be clear that the topic (i.e. music) is far richer and more complex.
- tracnar 6d ago
  To give an example, this it of course not true: > Only a limited set of frequencies is used in music. All these frequencies (that exist in music) can be played by a piano.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
    You're saying its not possible to tune a piano to an arbitrary set of 88 pitches?
    - organsnyder 6d ago
      Of course you can, but that's not what's implied by the quote. In addition to microtonality, many instruments (and the human voice) are capable of infinite tuning, and musicians will deviate from the "correct" note (as played by an even-tempered instrument) based on chord structure, voice leading, etc.
      - BigTTYGothGF 6d ago
        Also quarter step bends in guitar and vibrato in general.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
        That's not what "tuning" means. Yes, fretless string instruments, the human voice, instruments like the trombone are all capable of being played with arbitrary or semi-arbitrary pitch. But they are still either tuned in some way, or never tuned at all. Performance is not tuning.
kian 6d ago
It's all about the integers modulo 12. Classical notation obscures that (while making it easier to figure out which of the integers modulo 12 you're using, minus being able to assign them to integers in an obvious way).
- BigTTYGothGF 6d ago
  > It's all about the integers modulo 12. Only in 12TET.
  - kian 6d ago
    24, 128, approach infinity -- I know there are microtonal systems, but if you want to understand them, choose the nearest multiple-of-twelve (or really, choose whatever TET contains the closest approximations to the exact notes) TET and look where their intervals land with respect to the symmetries (factors) within that TET, and where those symmetries are broken by a note moving by a perceptual 'slide' (one note 'moves' into the other position) rather than sounding like a new distinct voice.
    - bonzini 6d ago
      More like, only if you're playing Schoenberg it's about modulo 12. Almost all sheet music that you play uses 5 or 7 unequal subdivisions of the octave, and occasionally the rest. Sure, sometimes you'll have one or two of the rest on a regular basis (blues, harmonic/melodic minor), but still most music won't use all twelve.
      - drdaeman 6d ago
        Isn't modulo-twelve (if we ignore microtonal) the core underlying structure, and then you pick scale (like 2 2 1 2 2 2 1) and a key as a mapping, and then use degree as an 1-based index into the scale? I don't really know a thing about music, so I could be wrong here - but that mental model at least made some sense to me when I tried to map all the concepts I've heard about into some sort of a mental system.

bonzini 6d ago

https://youtu.be/Eq3bUFgEcb4 https://youtu.be/Eq3bUFgEcb4 explains why music notation is the way it is. There are very good reasons for it. The parts that are really weird (like the C clef) have mostly been obsoleted, unless you play the viola I guess.

song_synth 6d ago
love that video, it made me lol so hard the first time I saw it :D Classical composer and software engineer here. One of my goals is to help update score notation. I use something called "harmonic coloring" which is like a reduced MIDI notation: You color a note by its functional role (harmonic value) rather than an arbitrary hue in 0-11. What this view shares with MIDI: Long rectangles representing the applied durations. How it is different: Occupies a minimal amount vertical space. The color palette I'm using is intended to support people with colorblindness. The shades/hues of a color encodes the functional harmony. The root key signature (origin) is always the same color; and chords some distance r away on the circle of fifths is the shade/hue at that offset r. There is a similar concept described in the Tantacruel video towards the end. You can explore it here on Monic Theory. (mobile view should be fixed within 48 hours) https://monictheory.com/project-templates https://monictheory.com/project-templates
- PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
  Note that in historical Byzantine musical culture, there are no absolute pitches at all. Their notational form is entirely intervals from some arbitrary root note. Similarly, in Carnatic and Hindustani classical traditions, the note names (Sa, Re, Pa etc) do not denote pitches - Sa is always the root, whatever it is, and the rest have a somewhat well defined intervallic relationship to it. I personally would not use "harmonic value" to describe this, since it occurs in music that (broadly speaking) lacks harmony. The key point, IMO, is that what matters are sets of intervals (ratios, if you prefer) rather than actual pitches (as frequencies).
  - aanet 6d ago
    ^^ THIS Hindustani (and Carnatic) music indeed do not denote pitches for a very sound (pun intended) reason: They let singers choose the root note (Sa), and thereupon the melody is built. Most (all?) of Hindustani music is melody-based, not harmonic based (like Western music). And the melodies are themselves created within the Raga framework. Raga is like a mode (but not exactly that), and is hard to explain within the constraints of Western music theory precisely because that concept does not exist in western music per se. Which is why most Indian classical theorists call a raga a "melodic framework", and leave it at that (or expound on it, as the case may be). A great reference for Indian classical music is [1] and and more recent one [2] [1] The Ragas of North Indian Music, N.A. Jairazbhoy, https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.26725 https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.26725 [2] Rāgs Around the Clock, A Handbook for North Indian Classical Music, with Online Recordings in the Khayāl Style, https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0313#resources https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0313#r...
    - song_synth 6d ago
      much love for the Just Intonation in the house
  - mrob 6d ago
    Actual frequencies matter in bass-focused dance music. You want a root note around 40Hz to 60Hz, which is high enough that it's easily heard and reproduced, but not so high that it loses the tactile body-shaking effect.
jaggirs 6d ago
I suppose it makes historical sense, and even ingeniously designed. But it, and the piano black keys with it, are definitely not optimal. It makes playing in C easy, and playing in anything else hard. I've picked up a new instrument since ~2 months, and 1 month in I could already play all scales by by deliberately staying away from music notation, learning the raw distances/steps that make up a scale and how to play them, rather than the 'delta from C', which is how classical training taught me to think. (Same story for chords etc)
- PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
  I have some great news: you're a nerd ! :)) ... or is it geek, i can never remember the difference ...
- BalinKing 6d ago
  > But it, and the piano black keys with it, are definitely not optimal. It makes playing in C easy, and playing in anything else hard. I don't think this is true—I was under the impression that, at least on piano, keys other than C major are sometimes chosen specifically to make things easier on the fingers.
  - jaggirs 6d ago
    Easier on the fingers - maybe (I don't know what you reference), but not easier on the mind: Instead of learning each chord once, you have to learn it 12 times (for each key). See http://terpstrakeyboard.com/about/ http://terpstrakeyboard.com/about/
jerf 6d ago
It kind of reminds me of the periodic declaration someone makes on HN that textual programming sucks and we all need to switch to something else, usually visual programming in this case. If someone takes time to deeply understand the advantages of the textual approach and then builds an alternative, I'll listen. But at this point, anyone who is doing this and their criticism of the original approach is shallow and uninsightful, where it's basically just "it's old and it must therefore suck", is unlikely to produce a good answer. I think that applies to the music notation case too. "Conventional" music notation isn't just a staff and a couple of types of notes. By the time you handle all the use cases that conventional notation handles, or even just a solid subset of it, your brand new notation is probably a lot less elegant than it started out as in someone's head.
- TheOtherHobbes 6d ago
  Exactly. Music theory is a programming language for musical composition and performance. Unlike most languages it's inherently two dimensional because music includes both horizontal (time, rhythm) and vertical pitches (chords/colours, harmony) information. And - especially important - melody is an element that needs both. You can't represent the same information with text without losing a lot of important content, which is why toys like Sonic Pi are more limited than they seem. You can kinda sorta represent the same information on a piano roll, but it's not any easier to read than dots - in some ways harder, because you're not going to see the relationship between a bass line and chords as clearly. Is it a good programming language? It's quite dense, but not denser than some code idioms. The 2D element is unique, and hard to represent in other ways. The learning curve is steep, but it's probably as good as it can be given the requirements and constraints.
  - bluGill 6d ago
    Don't forget about the dynamics (loud or soft) dimension of music.
  - otabdeveloper4 6d ago
    > Exactly. Music theory is a programming language for musical composition and performance. Not really. Here in the 21st century people mostly use DAWs, and there's a piano roll inside that thing instead of staff notation.
bitbckt 6d ago
As a semi-professional trombonist, C clefs are very important to me. Alto and tenor as-written, tenor as a means of transposing Bb treble, mezzo-soprano as a means of transposing F parts… they are not obsolete.
- totallymike 6d ago
  My favorite genre of hacker news comment is when someone lacks sufficient imagination to wonder why something that’s commonly used by many people is still in use
  - bonzini 6d ago
    FWIW, there's no real need for imagination here. The comment says "mostly", and added a parenthetical comment that was simply meant to name the viola as a prominent remaining use. In particular, trombones have almost entirely stopped using the tenor clef in jazz.
    - bitbckt 5d ago
      It's true that jazz charts are unlikely to use tenor clef. Nonetheless, it remains career limiting for a trombonist to be unable to read clefs. Commercial players are likely to use the skill for transposing Bb treble lead sheets, or playing in a pit. Tenor clef shows up in modern musicals regularly. Not to mention being shunned from quartet or choir opportunities that are the basis of networking in the industry.
      - bonzini 5d ago
        Transposing is an important skill for all instruments. It's true that trombonists get some cases for free if they learn the tenor and alto clefs, but it's possible to learn it without knowing the C clefs. And even trombonists have to learn how to handle sharps and flats in chromatic passages, so there's a lot more to transposing than using a different clef. > Tenor clef shows up in modern musicals regularly. This I didn't know, thanks!
- 6d ago

Hunpeter 6d ago

This is a bit off topic, but since you mentioned your guide: I hope this doesn't come off as hostile, but the guide you linked contains a number of inaccuracies and oversimplifications - it's kind of naive in an endearing way, but also leaves the reader with the impression that it covers all there is to music. I guess what I'm saying is it's fine to restrict yourself in what you include in the guide, or even simplify things, but it should be clear that the topic (i.e. music) is far richer and more complex.

tracnar 6d ago
To give an example, this it of course not true: > Only a limited set of frequencies is used in music. All these frequencies (that exist in music) can be played by a piano.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
  You're saying its not possible to tune a piano to an arbitrary set of 88 pitches?
  - organsnyder 6d ago
    Of course you can, but that's not what's implied by the quote. In addition to microtonality, many instruments (and the human voice) are capable of infinite tuning, and musicians will deviate from the "correct" note (as played by an even-tempered instrument) based on chord structure, voice leading, etc.
    - BigTTYGothGF 6d ago
      Also quarter step bends in guitar and vibrato in general.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6d ago
      That's not what "tuning" means. Yes, fretless string instruments, the human voice, instruments like the trombone are all capable of being played with arbitrary or semi-arbitrary pitch. But they are still either tuned in some way, or never tuned at all. Performance is not tuning.

kian 6d ago

It's all about the integers modulo 12. Classical notation obscures that (while making it easier to figure out which of the integers modulo 12 you're using, minus being able to assign them to integers in an obvious way).

BigTTYGothGF 6d ago
> It's all about the integers modulo 12. Only in 12TET.
- kian 6d ago
  24, 128, approach infinity -- I know there are microtonal systems, but if you want to understand them, choose the nearest multiple-of-twelve (or really, choose whatever TET contains the closest approximations to the exact notes) TET and look where their intervals land with respect to the symmetries (factors) within that TET, and where those symmetries are broken by a note moving by a perceptual 'slide' (one note 'moves' into the other position) rather than sounding like a new distinct voice.
  - bonzini 6d ago
    More like, only if you're playing Schoenberg it's about modulo 12. Almost all sheet music that you play uses 5 or 7 unequal subdivisions of the octave, and occasionally the rest. Sure, sometimes you'll have one or two of the rest on a regular basis (blues, harmonic/melodic minor), but still most music won't use all twelve.
    - drdaeman 6d ago
      Isn't modulo-twelve (if we ignore microtonal) the core underlying structure, and then you pick scale (like 2 2 1 2 2 2 1) and a key as a mapping, and then use degree as an 1-based index into the scale? I don't really know a thing about music, so I could be wrong here - but that mental model at least made some sense to me when I tried to map all the concepts I've heard about into some sort of a mental system.