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> because they know it is wrong Or they know they'll be told it was wrong. Children start knowing nothing then they slowly absorb what they're told again and a

> because they know it is wrong Or they know they'll be told it was wrong. Children start knowing nothing then they slowly absorb what they're told again and again, and what they see around them until they feel it. They go from knowing nothing, to knowing what the adults told them, to internalizing that and feeling it rather than just knowing it (maybe these 2 concepts fully overlap in other people's minds). But until they do get all of that, they'll spend a lot of time plucking wings off of insects, burning ants with a magnifying glass, pulling the cat by the tail, or throwing rocks at dogs and frogs.

WalterBright 6d ago
That simply was not true for me.
- Timon3 6d ago
  How could it be possible for anyone to accurately reflect on the mechanisms shaping their emotional reaction to a specific situation when they were 4 years old? It should be transparently obvious that this is unknowable. First, by the time we begin to form memories, these influences have already been shaping us for months to years. Second, even if at 4 years old you remembered every moment from birth to now, you still wouldn't have the ability to actually reflect on all that data. Most adults aren't even capable of reflecting accurately on the influences affecting their current decisions!
  - WalterBright 5d ago
    I have other memories when I was 4, and talked about them with my parents years later. Another significant one is I wandered away and got lost in London, and some cops noticed me and picked me up and took me to the station. My parents filled in some details, some of which I did not remember. And yeah, I remember the emotions I felt.
    - Timon3 5d ago
      I don't doubt that you have memories from when you were 4, I have memories from that time too. And I'm sure you felt the shame you described. But I know that it's impossible for a 4-year-old to accurately decipher why they feel shame when they do! You disagreed with sevenzero when they claimed that concepts like violence and right and wrong are actively taught by parents instead of being innate to children. Assuming you read all three lines of sevenzero's comment before disagreeing: the perspective of your 4-year-old self is not a reliable source, because 4-year-old children cannot accurately differentiate between innate or taught feelings.
      - WalterBright 5d ago
        I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong.
        Timon3 5d ago
        > I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. How could a person who was taught social concepts of right and wrong since birth ever hope to reliably determine which parts of said concepts in their own mind are innate, and which aren't? Human minds are infamous for being terrible at introspecting their own mechanisms at the best of times. > I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong. Unless said very young people were raised by wolves, chances are that they've been taught these concepts since birth as well. You can't determine the innateness by only looking at people who share this bias.
        WalterBright 5d ago
        Some animals are social in behavior, others are not. Humans are social animals. Why would one believe that social behavior is learned, not inherited? Selective breeding of foxes has turned them into social animals.
- close04 5d ago
  I can't say whether it was or wasn't true for you. But I can say your certainty is misplaced. Most of your memories and everything you think of now about early childhood were formed long after it. They were created from bits and pieces of real memories, stories, backsplanations for things that happened later, retrospective, etc. Even if you had now an accurate debug dump of your child brain, you'd still not be able to process that the way you processed it back then. Your kid brain was a black box, a CPU with a different architecture running code that you've never before or since. You later tried to recreate that code for the CPU you have now, based on input from others who've also never seen that original code or have access to that type of CPU. And you are certain you recreated it accurately?
  - WalterBright 5d ago
    > And you are certain you recreated it accurately? Yes.

WalterBright 6d ago

That simply was not true for me.

Timon3 6d ago
How could it be possible for anyone to accurately reflect on the mechanisms shaping their emotional reaction to a specific situation when they were 4 years old? It should be transparently obvious that this is unknowable. First, by the time we begin to form memories, these influences have already been shaping us for months to years. Second, even if at 4 years old you remembered every moment from birth to now, you still wouldn't have the ability to actually reflect on all that data. Most adults aren't even capable of reflecting accurately on the influences affecting their current decisions!
- WalterBright 5d ago
  I have other memories when I was 4, and talked about them with my parents years later. Another significant one is I wandered away and got lost in London, and some cops noticed me and picked me up and took me to the station. My parents filled in some details, some of which I did not remember. And yeah, I remember the emotions I felt.
  - Timon3 5d ago
    I don't doubt that you have memories from when you were 4, I have memories from that time too. And I'm sure you felt the shame you described. But I know that it's impossible for a 4-year-old to accurately decipher why they feel shame when they do! You disagreed with sevenzero when they claimed that concepts like violence and right and wrong are actively taught by parents instead of being innate to children. Assuming you read all three lines of sevenzero's comment before disagreeing: the perspective of your 4-year-old self is not a reliable source, because 4-year-old children cannot accurately differentiate between innate or taught feelings.
    - WalterBright 5d ago
      I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong.
      - Timon3 5d ago
        > I would certainly agree that one gets taught more refined and nuanced notions of right and wrong, but those are innate feelings. At least for me. How could a person who was taught social concepts of right and wrong since birth ever hope to reliably determine which parts of said concepts in their own mind are innate, and which aren't? Human minds are infamous for being terrible at introspecting their own mechanisms at the best of times. > I recall seeing a TV show where they studied very young people by putting them in right and wrong situations, and they definitely knew what was right and wrong. Unless said very young people were raised by wolves, chances are that they've been taught these concepts since birth as well. You can't determine the innateness by only looking at people who share this bias.
        WalterBright 5d ago
        Some animals are social in behavior, others are not. Humans are social animals. Why would one believe that social behavior is learned, not inherited? Selective breeding of foxes has turned them into social animals.
close04 5d ago
I can't say whether it was or wasn't true for you. But I can say your certainty is misplaced. Most of your memories and everything you think of now about early childhood were formed long after it. They were created from bits and pieces of real memories, stories, backsplanations for things that happened later, retrospective, etc. Even if you had now an accurate debug dump of your child brain, you'd still not be able to process that the way you processed it back then. Your kid brain was a black box, a CPU with a different architecture running code that you've never before or since. You later tried to recreate that code for the CPU you have now, based on input from others who've also never seen that original code or have access to that type of CPU. And you are certain you recreated it accurately?
- WalterBright 5d ago
  > And you are certain you recreated it accurately? Yes.