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> Remember, in this situation we are not describing an LLM, but a system generated from the rules of chemistry However, it is a system with a representation pu
by GPerson 8d ago
> Remember, in this situation we are not describing an LLM, but a system generated from the rules of chemistry
However, it is a system with a representation purported to be a correct description of all the relevant rules of chemistry and physics, and we don’t have knowledge of what all the relevant rules are.
And I might add that there is an assumption here that the relevant rules are representable via arbitrary description.
There is a basic idea I hold which we can highlight now. Since you find it implausible that there is such a description as alluded above beyond the currently known theories, you are led to conclude that there must not be anything else in reality. I don’t see why we can assume a priori that every true aspect of reality is arbitrarily representable independently of the substrate. In fact qualia and experience seem to be a first person view of processes which have third person effects. It seems like any precise description of this system could only refer to the third person effects, not the first person effects (since the description is third person).
> I feel like you're on the wrong side of Occam. There is an obvious answer to this question - and yet you're picking the hypothetical/undiscovered/possibly non-existent one.
I don’t think Occam’s razor or questioning my biases etc.. have any explanatory value for the actual question at hand. They might have value for ethics or sociology, but I want to know the actual truth. The substrate independent view which somehow conjures consciousness just seems less plausible than the alternative to me.
- qarl 8d agoYou already conceded that the simulation would act exactly as the real item. That is a concession that all the behavior is captured by the laws of chemistry. The only thing you doubt is that the qualia is captured. And my question is - if the physical object doesn't need qualia to entirely duplicate the behavior of the creature - then where is this qualia coming from then? And why would Mother Nature add a system that is superfluous? And where is it hiding? And why doesn't it follow the laws of chemistry too? And I also want to point out - if we ask the simulation if he feels conscious, if he has feelings, he will say yes. All of his behavior is captured by the simulation. He will vehemently insist that he does. So why are you adding something extra? That's where my Occam question originates. Adding something extra is by definition less simple. And I think Occam is entirely relevant here... why would it not be?
- GPerson 8d ago> You already conceded that.. May apologies, but I intended to convey the opposite when I said this. I’ll read the rest of this comment later. > My position is that there must be something wrong with the idea that a behaviorally identical simulation can be made which is not conscious. I think this because I do think phenomenal consciousness is playing a role in behavior, since surely my consciousness is a cause of memories of my consciousness (certain structure of physical matter in my brain has been caused by my consciousness); this is called the self-stultification argument against epiphenomenalism.
- qarl 8d agoOH! Sorry - that's a different position then. Let's address it: So you think a computer can't simulate a human brain. But why do you think so? We've never found a physical system we can't simulate with a computer (and believe me, Searle and Penrose have tried). Given there's no evidence that this is even possible, and for which you have no evidence to support it - you still believe computers can't simulate brains? Why? I think this is an even greater stretch than before.
- GPerson 7d agoI have given my reasons. I will try again. You are fundamentally assuming all real concepts are reducible to arbitrary substrates like language. I believe there are real concepts which are not, like qualia. The entire premise of your belief is on this assumption I think but I don’t think you are aware that there is in fact an assumption here.
- deleted 6d ago[deleted]
- qarl 6d ago[dead]
- qarl 7d agoTo reiterate - You insist that computers cannot effectively simulate brains despite: 1) there being no evidence for such, 2) it would be the first ever situation we've discovered, and 3) there are strong arguments that it's not even logically consistent. If I'm mistaken please tell me where.