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The government does need a warrant to surveil someone, though. Which is what is happening here: a third party surveils citizens and the government searches that

The government does need a warrant to surveil someone, though. Which is what is happening here: a third party surveils citizens and the government searches that data.

Manuel_D 8d ago
Whether or not the government needs a warrant to surveil someone depends on how the government is conducting that surveillance. The government does, for instance, need a warrant to wiretap you. They do not need a warrant to record people in public spaces. Nor do they need a warrant to, say, photograph the exterior of your house.
- text0404 8d ago
  But they need a warrant to follow me around, record my movements, put them into a database which is searchable by other law enforcement. They're not taking a single photograph of a car, they're creating a database of movement of people who have not committed crimes.
  - Manuel_D 8d ago
    No, they do not need a warrant to follow you in public. What more is there to say, besides that you're just wrong about what privacy laws protect?
    - text0404 8d ago
      They need a warrant if they're going to record and track my movements over the course of months.
      - Manuel_D 8d ago
        If they're only tracking your movements in public, the no they do not. Again, you're just wrong about what privacy laws protect. They do not prohibit the police from surveilling or tracking you, they only control how the police is able to conduct that surveillance. If the police want to search your house or car, they need a warrant or at least probable cause for the latter. If they want to photograph you in public, they do not.
        croon 7d ago
        IANAL disclaimer. Police do need a warrant to place a GPS device on your vehicle. Data continuity is a function of data point frequency [0]. If all public space (and some participating private space) is monitored, the practical difference between a GPS device and a retroactive dragnet system disappears. You are correct that police do not require a warrant to follow someone around in public, but these systems aren't that, and in practice much closer to the GPS tracking, which does require a warrant. It's unclear without trying this further in court which this should qualify as. IMO: If the system has seen me exit the public space outside my home, or work, or someone elses home, or a store, or whevever, the system knows where I am at all points in time, like a GPS, with very little exception. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_effect
        Manuel_D 7d ago
        There's a big difference between saying "Flock and other ALPR tech is illegal" And "Flock and other ALPR tech is legal. But it's my personal prediction that some future Supreme Court decision will make them illegal."
        croon 6d ago
        Where does "Flock tech might currently be illegal pending adjudication" land? Just because someone is doing it, does not make it legal. For reference, US v. Jones was a 9-0 in the SC, in favor of Jones, though bipartisan split on the reasoning, which might be what carries over to any case that gets tried regarding this tech.
        Manuel_D 6d ago
        > Where does "Flock tech might currently be illegal pending adjudication" land? Just because someone is doing it, does not make it legal. It's legal until your expected Supreme Court decision lands. This is just another way of saying "Flock tech is legal, but if the Supreme Court rules the way I want then it will become illegal." > For reference, US v. Jones was a 9-0 in the SC, in favor of Jones, though bipartisan split on the reasoning, which might be what carries over to any case that gets tried regarding this tech "Might be" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. And again, until the court actually gives that ruling, Flock is legal.
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The government does need a warrant to surveil someone, though. Which is what is happening here: a third party surveils citizens and the government searches that data.

Manuel_D 8d ago

Whether or not the government needs a warrant to surveil someone depends on how the government is conducting that surveillance. The government does, for instance, need a warrant to wiretap you. They do not need a warrant to record people in public spaces. Nor do they need a warrant to, say, photograph the exterior of your house.

text0404 8d ago
But they need a warrant to follow me around, record my movements, put them into a database which is searchable by other law enforcement. They're not taking a single photograph of a car, they're creating a database of movement of people who have not committed crimes.
- Manuel_D 8d ago
  No, they do not need a warrant to follow you in public. What more is there to say, besides that you're just wrong about what privacy laws protect?
  - text0404 8d ago
    They need a warrant if they're going to record and track my movements over the course of months.
    - Manuel_D 8d ago
      If they're only tracking your movements in public, the no they do not. Again, you're just wrong about what privacy laws protect. They do not prohibit the police from surveilling or tracking you, they only control how the police is able to conduct that surveillance. If the police want to search your house or car, they need a warrant or at least probable cause for the latter. If they want to photograph you in public, they do not.
      - croon 7d ago
        IANAL disclaimer. Police do need a warrant to place a GPS device on your vehicle. Data continuity is a function of data point frequency [0]. If all public space (and some participating private space) is monitored, the practical difference between a GPS device and a retroactive dragnet system disappears. You are correct that police do not require a warrant to follow someone around in public, but these systems aren't that, and in practice much closer to the GPS tracking, which does require a warrant. It's unclear without trying this further in court which this should qualify as. IMO: If the system has seen me exit the public space outside my home, or work, or someone elses home, or a store, or whevever, the system knows where I am at all points in time, like a GPS, with very little exception. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_effect
        Manuel_D 7d ago
        There's a big difference between saying "Flock and other ALPR tech is illegal" And "Flock and other ALPR tech is legal. But it's my personal prediction that some future Supreme Court decision will make them illegal."
        croon 6d ago
        Where does "Flock tech might currently be illegal pending adjudication" land? Just because someone is doing it, does not make it legal. For reference, US v. Jones was a 9-0 in the SC, in favor of Jones, though bipartisan split on the reasoning, which might be what carries over to any case that gets tried regarding this tech.
        Manuel_D 6d ago
        > Where does "Flock tech might currently be illegal pending adjudication" land? Just because someone is doing it, does not make it legal. It's legal until your expected Supreme Court decision lands. This is just another way of saying "Flock tech is legal, but if the Supreme Court rules the way I want then it will become illegal." > For reference, US v. Jones was a 9-0 in the SC, in favor of Jones, though bipartisan split on the reasoning, which might be what carries over to any case that gets tried regarding this tech "Might be" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. And again, until the court actually gives that ruling, Flock is legal.
    - deleted 8d ago
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    - deleted 8d ago
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