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Capitalism will always promote such people into positions of power, because to be good at capitalism one must have zero empathy including empathy or concern for

Capitalism will always promote such people into positions of power, because to be good at capitalism one must have zero empathy including empathy or concern for future generations. Capitalism cannot do otherwise.

ergo14 7d ago
That's a lot of absolutes. And there is no defensible proof, just anecdotal evidence. I've been in a few companies from EU and US - and in my experience it is not ture. However after working for US companies I can understand why one would come to your conclusion, however the world is bigger than our bubbles.
yomismoaqui 7d ago
As if communism didn't end with evil dictators on power...
philipallstar 7d ago
> Capitalism cannot do otherwise. I really think this sort of claim needs to stop. Capitalism, like "patriarchy" is not a force in its own right. Capitalism is a system that encourages value creation for one's customers. That's not perfect, but it's still best so far.
- SupremumLimit 7d ago
  "value creation for one's customers" - that is a "not even wrong" level of misunderstanding of the system dynamics of capitalism. The primary driver is generation of _profit_ for owners of the means of production. Many things fall out of that - the tendency to monopolise, for example.
  - philipallstar 7d ago
    > "value creation for one's customers" - that is a "not even wrong" level of misunderstanding of the system dynamics of capitalism. The primary driver is generation of _profit_ for owners of the means of production. Many things fall out of that - the tendency to monopolise, for example. I don't see why you're talking like this. It's "not even wrong" in the sense that it's entirely correct. Monarchy and socialism grab money through taxes, and if you think monopolies are bad, wait til you're forced to use the state service that has no motivation to do well because there's no competition. It's not only a monopoly, it's a monopoly that takes your money by force. Capitalism requires investment and risk and competition to drive value up for customers who can choose. So you need to produce value for your customers to survive, and produce a profit after costs and taxes.
  - card_zero 7d ago
    You think that the liberty of capitalism enables selfish assholes to have influence, while under the constraints of communism the people with the influence are not selfish assholes.
  - DangitBobby 7d ago
    It really doesn't have to be that way. The problem boils down to, as with practically all human systems, is human behavior. There is no system you can devise that is run by humans and not corruptible and exploitable by the worst of us. Or even just everyday people.
    - Timon3 7d ago
      First: How do you know that every system is corruptible and exploitable? And second: What if other systems are less corruptible and exploitable? How do you know whether all systems have the same potential for corruption and exploitation? Capitalism is a system that explicitly rewards greed, and that gives the most power to the people with the most to gain from exploiting said power. Why is it unreasonable to believe that other systems are likely better on these fronts?
      - DangitBobby 7d ago
        How do I know that a system maintained by people is exploitable by people? IDK, that's a real thinker, isn't it. That all systems are exploitable, in absence of human influence, isn't the argument I'm making. It's tautologically true that systems that humans design and implement and depend on the behavior of humans to continue to run would be exploitable by humans. You cannot design a system dependent on human action that is also immune to human nature. As for the second, the more in control of the system humans are, the more they can exploit it. Your return on exploitation, which I think is really what you're getting at, is based on how diffuse the control and power is at the point that you exploit it. But the more diffuse control and power, the less responsive and effective the system is when working at full tilt. It's two sides of the same coin. Capitalism is a system of decentralized resource allocation. Decentralized systems have their pros and cons, and other systems that would rely on centrally planned economies have pros and cons. Capitalism isn't the issue, unfettered capitalism is the issue.
        Timon3 7d ago
        After that opener I'm guessing this will be a waste of effort... yes, it might be a real thinker, because AFAICS the two statements don't form a tautology. Is this based on actual findings by research in game theory, or did you just decide that this must be the case? Funnily enough, in my eyes it's obvious that capitalism in a globalized world must inevitably lead to unfettered capitalism, since the gravity effect of money along with competition between countries for their investments (with tax breaks etc. ) inevitably allows the capitalists to change the laws in their favor more and more. So I would ask for an objective measure of "how much in control humans are". I don't think it's a single dimension like you're implying, and I don't think capitalism is near any optimum due to the aforementioned effect.

ergo14 7d ago

That's a lot of absolutes. And there is no defensible proof, just anecdotal evidence. I've been in a few companies from EU and US - and in my experience it is not ture. However after working for US companies I can understand why one would come to your conclusion, however the world is bigger than our bubbles.

yomismoaqui 7d ago

As if communism didn't end with evil dictators on power...

philipallstar 7d ago

> Capitalism cannot do otherwise. I really think this sort of claim needs to stop. Capitalism, like "patriarchy" is not a force in its own right. Capitalism is a system that encourages value creation for one's customers. That's not perfect, but it's still best so far.

SupremumLimit 7d ago
"value creation for one's customers" - that is a "not even wrong" level of misunderstanding of the system dynamics of capitalism. The primary driver is generation of _profit_ for owners of the means of production. Many things fall out of that - the tendency to monopolise, for example.
- philipallstar 7d ago
  > "value creation for one's customers" - that is a "not even wrong" level of misunderstanding of the system dynamics of capitalism. The primary driver is generation of _profit_ for owners of the means of production. Many things fall out of that - the tendency to monopolise, for example. I don't see why you're talking like this. It's "not even wrong" in the sense that it's entirely correct. Monarchy and socialism grab money through taxes, and if you think monopolies are bad, wait til you're forced to use the state service that has no motivation to do well because there's no competition. It's not only a monopoly, it's a monopoly that takes your money by force. Capitalism requires investment and risk and competition to drive value up for customers who can choose. So you need to produce value for your customers to survive, and produce a profit after costs and taxes.
- card_zero 7d ago
  You think that the liberty of capitalism enables selfish assholes to have influence, while under the constraints of communism the people with the influence are not selfish assholes.
- DangitBobby 7d ago
  It really doesn't have to be that way. The problem boils down to, as with practically all human systems, is human behavior. There is no system you can devise that is run by humans and not corruptible and exploitable by the worst of us. Or even just everyday people.
  - Timon3 7d ago
    First: How do you know that every system is corruptible and exploitable? And second: What if other systems are less corruptible and exploitable? How do you know whether all systems have the same potential for corruption and exploitation? Capitalism is a system that explicitly rewards greed, and that gives the most power to the people with the most to gain from exploiting said power. Why is it unreasonable to believe that other systems are likely better on these fronts?
    - DangitBobby 7d ago
      How do I know that a system maintained by people is exploitable by people? IDK, that's a real thinker, isn't it. That all systems are exploitable, in absence of human influence, isn't the argument I'm making. It's tautologically true that systems that humans design and implement and depend on the behavior of humans to continue to run would be exploitable by humans. You cannot design a system dependent on human action that is also immune to human nature. As for the second, the more in control of the system humans are, the more they can exploit it. Your return on exploitation, which I think is really what you're getting at, is based on how diffuse the control and power is at the point that you exploit it. But the more diffuse control and power, the less responsive and effective the system is when working at full tilt. It's two sides of the same coin. Capitalism is a system of decentralized resource allocation. Decentralized systems have their pros and cons, and other systems that would rely on centrally planned economies have pros and cons. Capitalism isn't the issue, unfettered capitalism is the issue.
      - Timon3 7d ago
        After that opener I'm guessing this will be a waste of effort... yes, it might be a real thinker, because AFAICS the two statements don't form a tautology. Is this based on actual findings by research in game theory, or did you just decide that this must be the case? Funnily enough, in my eyes it's obvious that capitalism in a globalized world must inevitably lead to unfettered capitalism, since the gravity effect of money along with competition between countries for their investments (with tax breaks etc. ) inevitably allows the capitalists to change the laws in their favor more and more. So I would ask for an objective measure of "how much in control humans are". I don't think it's a single dimension like you're implying, and I don't think capitalism is near any optimum due to the aforementioned effect.