7 ms·

How is this not a gigantic fine from the EU for some kind of GDPR reason

qwytw 8d ago
Because it's technically opt-in. And AFAIK the the checkbox is more explicit in Europe and they probably do a bit ore to comply with GDPR. US is a free for all mostly when it comes to abusing consumers through contrived and unfair ToS agreements.
- ishtanbul 8d ago
  in the US. My LG TV has put up a giant TOS agreement thing and I can't use any apps until I agree. So I unplugged the ethernet cable and bought an Apple TV. problem solved?
  - microtonal 8d ago
    For now. I wouldn't surprised that if enough people start doing this, they'll just put a cheap cellular modem in the TV. Or find open access points. Or make a deal with Amazon and others to exfiltrate information via a smart home speaker/assistant. Technical solutions only go so far, at some point you have to put in place a regulatory framework that requires consent. The divergences between US-EU privacy policies, configuration screens, etc. show that the GDPR is slowly starting to do its work.
  - rickdeckard 8d ago
    What LG (and Samsung and all the other electronics companies) are doing is profiling the user to sell targeted advertising. This is technically not personal information, and that's a grey area for those companies when communicating to the public. People here generally don't like to hear that, but Apple is doing the very same. There's even a study-paper on how they do this without collecting personal information [0] So when a company yells out how it's not collecting your "personal information", the statement actually doesn't cover what has been discovered here from all I can decipher from this "research" [0] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/learning-with-privacy-at-scale https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/learning-with-pri...
  - drnick1 8d ago
    > So I unplugged the ethernet cable and bought an Apple TV. What makes you think the Apple TV is any better? I'd wager that Apple collects just as much telemetry.
    - qwytw 7d ago
      Apple has little incentives to do that, though? They make money from selling hardware and are able to charge a premium (more than they could making by stealing and selling private user information) because they have a reputation. It would be very unwise to compromise that for pennies. LG and other consumer electronics manufacturers have tiny margins compared to Apple so that extra percent or two they can make from stuff like this is pretty big for them.
    - sgerenser 8d ago
      No, I don’t think they do. That’s why AppleTV is so expensive compared to a Roku.
- thibaut_barrere 8d ago
  The opt-in is bollocks. I am a LG owner and quite technical and used to legalese too. This will get them fined in Europe.
  - rickdeckard 8d ago
    The terms of service in Europe [0] are actually very different to those in US [1], I wouldn't be surprised if the behavior within the EU is within EU GDPR regulation. GDPR "only" covers your personal information (and personal identifiable information) anyway, it doesn't cover data used to profile you (e.g. the time of day the TV and the hours a TV is switched on is technically not personal information) Either way, case in point: Check this hilarious statement in the US ToS: "6. I understand and agree that Voice Information may, for the purposes set out above, be transferred to and processed in other countries (including Korea), some of which may not offer the same level of data protection." Also, this one in the US ToS: "9. I understand that this Smart Media Product is a household device. If this Smart Media Product will be used by more than one person, I represent that, in addition to agreeing to this Agreement, that I have obtained consent from all other members of my household whose information may be collected through this Smart Media Product and am providing consent on their behalf." vs. Europe ToS: "I understand and agree that Voice Information is generally handled by LGE in such a way that members of your household are not identified or identifiable from that information. Please be aware that this means that if several members of your household use Smart Media Product services we may not be able to distinguish you and your personal information from members of your household and those members may be able to see information (including some personal information) you have generated through use of Smart Media Product Services." [0] https://gb.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6 https://gb.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6 [1] https://us.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6 https://us.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6
rickdeckard 8d ago
> How is this not a gigantic fine from the EU for some kind of GDPR reason The underlying "research" is unfortunately not that clean, but I'd say for two reasons: 1. Because looking at the LG ToS alone, it seems that the devices do MUCH more data-collecting outside Europe 2. GDPR is covering your personal information (WHO you are) and personal identifiable information (data that can be used to infer WHO you are). In a nutshell: If a device (a TV, a phone, a car, a Smart Home device, whatever) collects information to PROFILE you, without collecting data about WHO you are, they are not violating your privacy. The company needs to be VERY careful about not accidentally collecting identifiable information, but as long as this doesn't happen, it's within GDPR. That said, a proper technical write-up of the issues found, with an investigation by a professional journalist would be very helpful to get things going, put proper pressure where it needs to be and dismantle this Ad network business-model of all those TV-manufacturers (Samsung Ads, LG Ads, TCL Ads, Hisense Ads,...)
- throwaway894345 8d ago
  > it seems that the devices do MUCH more data-collecting outside Europe Just a note: GDPR applies globally. Companies can't collect data on Europeans even if they reside on another continent.
  - vrganj 8d ago
    As a European that lived in the US for a while, I enjoyed responding to unsolicited marketing emails with GDPR emails to legal departments.
  - mitxela 8d ago
    GDPR claims to apply globally, in the same way Windows believes it owns the whole computer, but I'm actually running it in a VM. The actual boundary of GDPR is the intersection of where it says it applies (everyone in Europe and European residents everywhere), where it can be enforced (in Europe, mostly, against European business entities), and what judges will actually rule on (probably not Europeans overseas who misrepresent themselves as locals)
microtonal 8d ago
I am not sure about other products. But I have noticed that Samsung phones started putting most toggles off by default (toggles for collecting data). So the GDPR slowly seems to have some effect on different products. (A few years ago, you definitely had to opt out of data collection.)

Because it's technically opt-in. And AFAIK the the checkbox is more explicit in Europe and they probably do a bit ore to comply with GDPR. US is a free for all mostly when it comes to abusing consumers through contrived and unfair ToS agreements.

ishtanbul 8d ago
in the US. My LG TV has put up a giant TOS agreement thing and I can't use any apps until I agree. So I unplugged the ethernet cable and bought an Apple TV. problem solved?
- microtonal 8d ago
  For now. I wouldn't surprised that if enough people start doing this, they'll just put a cheap cellular modem in the TV. Or find open access points. Or make a deal with Amazon and others to exfiltrate information via a smart home speaker/assistant. Technical solutions only go so far, at some point you have to put in place a regulatory framework that requires consent. The divergences between US-EU privacy policies, configuration screens, etc. show that the GDPR is slowly starting to do its work.
- rickdeckard 8d ago
  What LG (and Samsung and all the other electronics companies) are doing is profiling the user to sell targeted advertising. This is technically not personal information, and that's a grey area for those companies when communicating to the public. People here generally don't like to hear that, but Apple is doing the very same. There's even a study-paper on how they do this without collecting personal information [0] So when a company yells out how it's not collecting your "personal information", the statement actually doesn't cover what has been discovered here from all I can decipher from this "research" [0] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/learning-with-privacy-at-scale https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/learning-with-pri...
- drnick1 8d ago
  > So I unplugged the ethernet cable and bought an Apple TV. What makes you think the Apple TV is any better? I'd wager that Apple collects just as much telemetry.
  - qwytw 7d ago
    Apple has little incentives to do that, though? They make money from selling hardware and are able to charge a premium (more than they could making by stealing and selling private user information) because they have a reputation. It would be very unwise to compromise that for pennies. LG and other consumer electronics manufacturers have tiny margins compared to Apple so that extra percent or two they can make from stuff like this is pretty big for them.
  - sgerenser 8d ago
    No, I don’t think they do. That’s why AppleTV is so expensive compared to a Roku.
thibaut_barrere 8d ago
The opt-in is bollocks. I am a LG owner and quite technical and used to legalese too. This will get them fined in Europe.
- rickdeckard 8d ago
  The terms of service in Europe [0] are actually very different to those in US [1], I wouldn't be surprised if the behavior within the EU is within EU GDPR regulation. GDPR "only" covers your personal information (and personal identifiable information) anyway, it doesn't cover data used to profile you (e.g. the time of day the TV and the hours a TV is switched on is technically not personal information) Either way, case in point: Check this hilarious statement in the US ToS: "6. I understand and agree that Voice Information may, for the purposes set out above, be transferred to and processed in other countries (including Korea), some of which may not offer the same level of data protection." Also, this one in the US ToS: "9. I understand that this Smart Media Product is a household device. If this Smart Media Product will be used by more than one person, I represent that, in addition to agreeing to this Agreement, that I have obtained consent from all other members of my household whose information may be collected through this Smart Media Product and am providing consent on their behalf." vs. Europe ToS: "I understand and agree that Voice Information is generally handled by LGE in such a way that members of your household are not identified or identifiable from that information. Please be aware that this means that if several members of your household use Smart Media Product services we may not be able to distinguish you and your personal information from members of your household and those members may be able to see information (including some personal information) you have generated through use of Smart Media Product Services." [0] https://gb.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6 https://gb.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6 [1] https://us.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6 https://us.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6

rickdeckard 8d ago

> How is this not a gigantic fine from the EU for some kind of GDPR reason The underlying "research" is unfortunately not that clean, but I'd say for two reasons: 1. Because looking at the LG ToS alone, it seems that the devices do MUCH more data-collecting outside Europe 2. GDPR is covering your personal information (WHO you are) and personal identifiable information (data that can be used to infer WHO you are). In a nutshell: If a device (a TV, a phone, a car, a Smart Home device, whatever) collects information to PROFILE you, without collecting data about WHO you are, they are not violating your privacy. The company needs to be VERY careful about not accidentally collecting identifiable information, but as long as this doesn't happen, it's within GDPR. That said, a proper technical write-up of the issues found, with an investigation by a professional journalist would be very helpful to get things going, put proper pressure where it needs to be and dismantle this Ad network business-model of all those TV-manufacturers (Samsung Ads, LG Ads, TCL Ads, Hisense Ads,...)

throwaway894345 8d ago
> it seems that the devices do MUCH more data-collecting outside Europe Just a note: GDPR applies globally. Companies can't collect data on Europeans even if they reside on another continent.
- vrganj 8d ago
  As a European that lived in the US for a while, I enjoyed responding to unsolicited marketing emails with GDPR emails to legal departments.
- mitxela 8d ago
  GDPR claims to apply globally, in the same way Windows believes it owns the whole computer, but I'm actually running it in a VM. The actual boundary of GDPR is the intersection of where it says it applies (everyone in Europe and European residents everywhere), where it can be enforced (in Europe, mostly, against European business entities), and what judges will actually rule on (probably not Europeans overseas who misrepresent themselves as locals)

microtonal 8d ago

I am not sure about other products. But I have noticed that Samsung phones started putting most toggles off by default (toggles for collecting data). So the GDPR slowly seems to have some effect on different products. (A few years ago, you definitely had to opt out of data collection.)