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Religion is very closely tied to social support structures: You can only "make one up" if the people who you are close with go along with you.

ck2 8d ago
you have a point but it doesn't take many I live in an area surrounded by cults but also there are plenty of solitary practitioners of Wicca and Buddhism and then you have the dozen of forms of christianity where every church just put their own spin on things people are weird, religion just makes it even more so I don't have a problem as long as they keep it to themselves but that rarely is the case
heresie-dabord 8d ago
> Religion is very closely tied to power structures Fixed it for you, Sir.
- vivekd 8d ago
  in all cases? Really. That seems more like a trusim that people often blindly repeat than something that's actually supported by facts. I can see how Islam being designed as a state religion can be tied to power structures. Perhaps there is an argument that Hinduism supported feudal social structures. Other than that, the idea that religion is closely tied to power structures seems to be questionable and weakly supported. Was shamanic belief tied to the power of chiefs in ancient tribes? I don't think so. Buddha was a prince but it seems tenuous to say that buddhist monks somehow supported royal power in the East. I could go on. . .
- gwbas1c 7d ago
  People form religions, the power gets abused, they form new ones, the power gets abused, rinse, lather, repeat. I consider myself lucky to live in a time and place where I'm not forced to participate or financially support a religion. --- Now, if you don't want to sound like a random person on the internet talking about something they don't understand, a good book to look at is "Caught in the Pulpit: Leaving Belief Behind". (Co-authored by Daniel C. Dennett, one of the "big four" atheists and Linda LaScola.) The book is based around interviews with clergy who've become atheist. It exposes the different kinds of social and power structures that exist within common religions. I distinctly remember reading about a Hasidic clergy member who has a secret atheist club in his community, but they all love their community so much that they would never leave. I also distinctly remember an Episcopalian minister who's "trapped" in a conservative church where the elderly parishioners still believe, even though he doesn't, nor does official church doctrine require him to. The book humanizes the power structure to the point where you realize it exists because of social momentum and peoples' desire for a social support system. https://www.amazon.com/Caught-Pulpit-Leaving-Belief-Behind/dp/1634310209 https://www.amazon.com/Caught-Pulpit-Leaving-Belief-Behind/d...
  - heresie-dabord 3d ago
    > Now, if you don't want to sound like a random person on the internet talking about something they don't understand This made me laugh. Thanks for not letting me fall unassisted into such an overpopulated trap. ^_^ > People form religions, the power gets abused, they form new ones, the power gets abused, rinse, lather, repeat. Zeal in general and religious movements in particular are useful. Power imposes its order on anything useful in the exercise of power. States adopt religions, religions adopt armies, people change religions. Lather, rinse, syncrete, repeat. The individual manifestation of religious feeling of a hermit and his favourite cactus is in the main not what gives the "great religions" of today their greatness. > the book humanizes the power structure [...] it exists because of social momentum and peoples' desire for a social support system. To be sure, community centres have existed wherever humans have formed community. I suppose we can agree that our species was living in groups quite early in its evolutionary journey. Group living and pooling resources are fundamentally advantageous survival strategies. But there is order even in such humble groups. Individuals may agree or not on what they believe. A rapid survey of the present or of any other time/place in history shows that they often disagree. Sometimes with weapons. Humanised or not, the power structure serves a few main purposes. Among which: imposition of order, economic management, and (in many examples) military support. The power structure expands to meet the expanding needs of the power structure. Which may even result in people praying for its healthy continuance.

ck2 8d ago

you have a point but it doesn't take many I live in an area surrounded by cults but also there are plenty of solitary practitioners of Wicca and Buddhism and then you have the dozen of forms of christianity where every church just put their own spin on things people are weird, religion just makes it even more so I don't have a problem as long as they keep it to themselves but that rarely is the case

heresie-dabord 8d ago

> Religion is very closely tied to power structures Fixed it for you, Sir.

vivekd 8d ago
in all cases? Really. That seems more like a trusim that people often blindly repeat than something that's actually supported by facts. I can see how Islam being designed as a state religion can be tied to power structures. Perhaps there is an argument that Hinduism supported feudal social structures. Other than that, the idea that religion is closely tied to power structures seems to be questionable and weakly supported. Was shamanic belief tied to the power of chiefs in ancient tribes? I don't think so. Buddha was a prince but it seems tenuous to say that buddhist monks somehow supported royal power in the East. I could go on. . .
gwbas1c 7d ago
People form religions, the power gets abused, they form new ones, the power gets abused, rinse, lather, repeat. I consider myself lucky to live in a time and place where I'm not forced to participate or financially support a religion. --- Now, if you don't want to sound like a random person on the internet talking about something they don't understand, a good book to look at is "Caught in the Pulpit: Leaving Belief Behind". (Co-authored by Daniel C. Dennett, one of the "big four" atheists and Linda LaScola.) The book is based around interviews with clergy who've become atheist. It exposes the different kinds of social and power structures that exist within common religions. I distinctly remember reading about a Hasidic clergy member who has a secret atheist club in his community, but they all love their community so much that they would never leave. I also distinctly remember an Episcopalian minister who's "trapped" in a conservative church where the elderly parishioners still believe, even though he doesn't, nor does official church doctrine require him to. The book humanizes the power structure to the point where you realize it exists because of social momentum and peoples' desire for a social support system. https://www.amazon.com/Caught-Pulpit-Leaving-Belief-Behind/dp/1634310209 https://www.amazon.com/Caught-Pulpit-Leaving-Belief-Behind/d...
- heresie-dabord 3d ago
  > Now, if you don't want to sound like a random person on the internet talking about something they don't understand This made me laugh. Thanks for not letting me fall unassisted into such an overpopulated trap. ^_^ > People form religions, the power gets abused, they form new ones, the power gets abused, rinse, lather, repeat. Zeal in general and religious movements in particular are useful. Power imposes its order on anything useful in the exercise of power. States adopt religions, religions adopt armies, people change religions. Lather, rinse, syncrete, repeat. The individual manifestation of religious feeling of a hermit and his favourite cactus is in the main not what gives the "great religions" of today their greatness. > the book humanizes the power structure [...] it exists because of social momentum and peoples' desire for a social support system. To be sure, community centres have existed wherever humans have formed community. I suppose we can agree that our species was living in groups quite early in its evolutionary journey. Group living and pooling resources are fundamentally advantageous survival strategies. But there is order even in such humble groups. Individuals may agree or not on what they believe. A rapid survey of the present or of any other time/place in history shows that they often disagree. Sometimes with weapons. Humanised or not, the power structure serves a few main purposes. Among which: imposition of order, economic management, and (in many examples) military support. The power structure expands to meet the expanding needs of the power structure. Which may even result in people praying for its healthy continuance.