8 ms·

> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc) Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yours

> So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc) Dreadful framing. You work for the benefit of the entirety of Germany including yourself half the time. Instead of viewing it as money you've lost, do this: look at the fractions of what the German (federal, municipal, etc) government spends its budget on, then apply these to what you pay yearly in taxes. Then compare that to the other things you spend money on privately and what value you directly or indirectly get out of what you 'worked for for the state'.

sajithdilshan 9d ago
That would have worked if the things were getting better and living standards are being elevated. Right now it’s more like your tax is being used in wasteful spending, funding wars and corruption that doesn’t improve the quality of life at all
- dinfinity 9d ago
  Have you tried? Because most people judge these things based on feelings rather than data and actual numbers. Those feelings are almost always a bad heavily skewed representation of reality.
  - sajithdilshan 8d ago
    I live in Berlin and have experienced and living it. I have experienced how much I have to pay extra for groceries, utilities, heating and rent. I have seen how the public transportation has degraded even though the ticket prices are increasing. I have experienced how the take home salary has decreased even over the last 3 years. I have experienced how difficult it is just to get an appointment for a doctor even though I am paying even more for the health insurance. It’s not based on feelings but experience and evidence. I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. But since Covid times the opposite is happening
    - dinfinity 8d ago
      That was not the question. You have not tried, clearly. This is about gaining insight into what parts of your tax contribution pay for what exactly. > I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. So what's the solution to improving your experience, pay less in taxes or more? Don't add conditions. Remember that this is the subject: "So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc)". Sidenote, as to your experience: most of that is not due to the German government, but to wars started by Russia and the US/Israel, and indeed other global crises. They have influence over how to act on crises, but they can't (for instance) magically make natural gas/oil appear out of thin air. The easy proof for this is that many, many, many countries with very different governments face those same issues.
      - belorn 8d ago
        The German government is responsible for making itself and its citizens wellbeing dependent on cheap natural gas/oil. It was German politicians that drove the classification of making natural gas "green" in EU, and it was their investments into fossil fuel infrastructure that enabled and encourage the industry to focus on products that utilized those cheap fossil fuels. They betted their economy on a world where cheap natural gas produced prosperity, and that bet fell apart when those wars started. Germany is thus paying the price for those failed investments, as is any country which energy market is connected to the German market. It is natural for voters to look to the government for a solution for a problem that the government is responsible for. If history had gone a different direction and kept natural gas prices low, the bet that the government did would had been successful and people would likely had a very different view of the government. People would had enjoyed one of the cheapest electricity prices of the world, burners would be cheaper than electric heaters, and the chemical industry would possible be the biggest in the world. Emissions would still be high but the bet was always to utilize natural gas until green hydrogen could replace it, even if that part of the bet had dubious scientific support).
        dinfinity 8d ago
rdm_blackhole 9d ago
Your framing is no better: Don't look at how much you are paying in taxes because somehow in the end you are getting more out of it. Of course you should look at what you are getting out of it and scrutinize every euro spent by the state. This is the basis of the social contract between a country and its citizens. Citizens pay money in the form of taxes and expect to receive decent services in return. If the state is no longer fulfilling its share of the agreement then what? People are happy to pay high taxes if they see improvements in their lives but they do not: - Germany has had massive infrastructure backlog for the last 15 years that will not be resolved tomorrow - The German state is increasingly seen as a wasteful thing that still runs of paper and fax machines when we are well within the digital age - Germany's train system is so dysfunctional that only 60% of its trains are on time - Germany's healthcare system is one the most expensive in the world and people are paying more and more for a lesser service This is the same problem that France is facing today.
- dinfinity 9d ago
  Have you tried doing what I suggested? As an addendum to what I said to your sibling commenter: people in developed countries take a lot of shit for granted. Of course there is a judicial system. Of course sewage is properly dealt with. Of course there is a fire department, etc. etc. The whole point of the exercise is realizing what your taxes are actually providing. All that shit ain't free: it costs a lot of money and a lot of constant work from a lot of people who don't do it for the fame or fortune, yet publicly mostly just get shit on and called "lazy". Don't get me wrong: Government isn't perfect and a lot can be and should be improved, but the framing that it is somehow scandalous or immoral to have to spend half of your earnings on the collective (mostly) good, or even to call that theft (as so many do) is entitled, spoiled and ignorant of history. Edit: as to the prosperity of Germany, on a global scale and compared to other points in history it is actually doing fucking fantastic. It's citizens lead lives that are easily top 1% of any lives that have ever been and easily top 5% of lives currently on this planet.
  - cyberpunk 9d ago
    I'd like more control where my money goes. I'd happily spend the time every year deciding what % of my contribution goes where, and it would be more democratic. I'm happy to have sewers, police, schools, infrastructure and so on. I'm less enthused about the growing debt pile my children will inherit, and obvious wastes (e.g - the F126 story, everything Claudia Roth ever touched, 2.6 million* euros on whatever 'antisemitism funding' is, etc). edit: I was wrong, it was 2.6 million in antisemitism, not billion, so that's a pretty much irrelevant sum.

sajithdilshan 9d ago

That would have worked if the things were getting better and living standards are being elevated. Right now it’s more like your tax is being used in wasteful spending, funding wars and corruption that doesn’t improve the quality of life at all

dinfinity 9d ago
Have you tried? Because most people judge these things based on feelings rather than data and actual numbers. Those feelings are almost always a bad heavily skewed representation of reality.
- sajithdilshan 8d ago
  I live in Berlin and have experienced and living it. I have experienced how much I have to pay extra for groceries, utilities, heating and rent. I have seen how the public transportation has degraded even though the ticket prices are increasing. I have experienced how the take home salary has decreased even over the last 3 years. I have experienced how difficult it is just to get an appointment for a doctor even though I am paying even more for the health insurance. It’s not based on feelings but experience and evidence. I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. But since Covid times the opposite is happening
  - dinfinity 8d ago
    That was not the question. You have not tried, clearly. This is about gaining insight into what parts of your tax contribution pay for what exactly. > I am more than happy to pay the taxes and my share for the society, but only if it’s used for the good used and to make my living standards better. So what's the solution to improving your experience, pay less in taxes or more? Don't add conditions. Remember that this is the subject: "So we get to work for the state about half the time (including VAT etc)". Sidenote, as to your experience: most of that is not due to the German government, but to wars started by Russia and the US/Israel, and indeed other global crises. They have influence over how to act on crises, but they can't (for instance) magically make natural gas/oil appear out of thin air. The easy proof for this is that many, many, many countries with very different governments face those same issues.
    - belorn 8d ago
      The German government is responsible for making itself and its citizens wellbeing dependent on cheap natural gas/oil. It was German politicians that drove the classification of making natural gas "green" in EU, and it was their investments into fossil fuel infrastructure that enabled and encourage the industry to focus on products that utilized those cheap fossil fuels. They betted their economy on a world where cheap natural gas produced prosperity, and that bet fell apart when those wars started. Germany is thus paying the price for those failed investments, as is any country which energy market is connected to the German market. It is natural for voters to look to the government for a solution for a problem that the government is responsible for. If history had gone a different direction and kept natural gas prices low, the bet that the government did would had been successful and people would likely had a very different view of the government. People would had enjoyed one of the cheapest electricity prices of the world, burners would be cheaper than electric heaters, and the chemical industry would possible be the biggest in the world. Emissions would still be high but the bet was always to utilize natural gas until green hydrogen could replace it, even if that part of the bet had dubious scientific support).
      - dinfinity 8d ago

rdm_blackhole 9d ago

Your framing is no better: Don't look at how much you are paying in taxes because somehow in the end you are getting more out of it. Of course you should look at what you are getting out of it and scrutinize every euro spent by the state. This is the basis of the social contract between a country and its citizens. Citizens pay money in the form of taxes and expect to receive decent services in return. If the state is no longer fulfilling its share of the agreement then what? People are happy to pay high taxes if they see improvements in their lives but they do not: - Germany has had massive infrastructure backlog for the last 15 years that will not be resolved tomorrow - The German state is increasingly seen as a wasteful thing that still runs of paper and fax machines when we are well within the digital age - Germany's train system is so dysfunctional that only 60% of its trains are on time - Germany's healthcare system is one the most expensive in the world and people are paying more and more for a lesser service This is the same problem that France is facing today.

dinfinity 9d ago
Have you tried doing what I suggested? As an addendum to what I said to your sibling commenter: people in developed countries take a lot of shit for granted. Of course there is a judicial system. Of course sewage is properly dealt with. Of course there is a fire department, etc. etc. The whole point of the exercise is realizing what your taxes are actually providing. All that shit ain't free: it costs a lot of money and a lot of constant work from a lot of people who don't do it for the fame or fortune, yet publicly mostly just get shit on and called "lazy". Don't get me wrong: Government isn't perfect and a lot can be and should be improved, but the framing that it is somehow scandalous or immoral to have to spend half of your earnings on the collective (mostly) good, or even to call that theft (as so many do) is entitled, spoiled and ignorant of history. Edit: as to the prosperity of Germany, on a global scale and compared to other points in history it is actually doing fucking fantastic. It's citizens lead lives that are easily top 1% of any lives that have ever been and easily top 5% of lives currently on this planet.
- cyberpunk 9d ago
  I'd like more control where my money goes. I'd happily spend the time every year deciding what % of my contribution goes where, and it would be more democratic. I'm happy to have sewers, police, schools, infrastructure and so on. I'm less enthused about the growing debt pile my children will inherit, and obvious wastes (e.g - the F126 story, everything Claudia Roth ever touched, 2.6 million* euros on whatever 'antisemitism funding' is, etc). edit: I was wrong, it was 2.6 million in antisemitism, not billion, so that's a pretty much irrelevant sum.