8 ms·
Man... I am wondering how much of everything this is these days... This is just one instance, but the propaganda effect I think is happening strong. I think p
by piloto_ciego 8d ago
Man... I am wondering how much of everything this is these days...
This is just one instance, but the propaganda effect I think is happening strong. I think probably all of public opinion is being manipulated like this...
- kilroy123 8d agoI've long thought _everything_ is already like this.
- forshaper 8d agoThe older I get and the more old stuff I sieve through, the more I feel I grew up in an environment shaped by short-term persuasions, all added up like different archaeological layers. Every single ideal, value, word, and so on, just marketing that hit my parents, or propaganda that hit my grandparents. Which is why the Confucian rectification of names is appealing.
- ScoobleDoodle 8d agoWhat is "Confucian rectification of names"? Thank you.
- forshaper 8d agoLike freezing requirements. Definitions of words change over time to suit a winning faction. This was especially dramatic in the last century or so. So for the Analects, it's something like making sure words mean what they meant when the land was run well. "If names are not right then speech does not accord with things; if speech is not in accord with things, then affairs cannot be successful; when affairs are not successful, li and music do not flourish; when li and music do not flourish, then sanctions and punishments miss their mark; when sanctions and punishments miss their mark, the people have no place to set their hands and feet. Therefore, when a junzi gives things names, they may be properly spoken of, and what is said may be properly enacted. With regard to speech, the junzi permits no carelessness.”
- hotsauceror 8d agoThis seems very much in the wheelhouse of clandestine agencies like the CIA and the FSB. Use front companies to modify the perceptions of reality by doing things like shifting the Overton window of currently discussed topics, preparing custom datasets for future LLM training that bake in desired assumptions, manipulating or publishing public opinion polls and prediction markets.
- sleepybrett 8d agoYou can see this in real time in our modern 'mainstream media', even MSNOW, the supposedly 'left-leaning' 'anti-foxnews' sounds more like a regan era republican than it's actual desired audience. If you turn on cnn it's just constantly drumbeating iran war/support for israel, etc.
- horsawlarway 8d agoHardly need to add "Modern" on this statement. Hell - Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" is nearly 40 years old at this point (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent) If anything - I actually think we're at a spot where the mask is slipping a bit, because the US was slow to adapt its media distortion to the internet, and the financial interests in the US are stretching even farther away from general sentiment. So the notice is because they've fumbled, and now are beating the drum extra hard to try to make up ground.
- ChrisMarshallNY 8d agoA classic Yes, Prime Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks
- wang_li 8d agoPeople just randomly get excited and make up shit online. See Median Strategies aka Rahil Prakash just making up polls and publishing them this month. Then declaring it was a social experiment and shutting down his website. After affecting prediction markets in some minor ways.
- lefstathiou 8d agoAbsolutely, billions (or trillions) of dollars of value and the future of the parties and our trade relations are at stake. For Paramount, I'd imagine they have no choice but to do this. It would be naive to think its opponents aren't astro-turfing the other side.
- autoexec 8d agoThe opponents don't have to astro-turf. They can express their genuine feelings about the merger and the well known problems of media consolidation. Paramount has to astro-turf because there isn't any actual support for what they want outside of the small number of people who will make a ton of money in the deal.
- saalweachter 8d agoThe thing about saying "everyone does it" to justify yourself is that eventually you start believing it.
- thatjoeoverthr 8d agoThis goes back far, and I’ve even seen what appear to be shills for random B-list celebrities. Add SEO business as usual, political campaigns, international influence and the SnR is just radio static.
- RobRivera 8d agoI was literally just ranting about this yesterday regarding a reddit thread where the astroturfing was so obviojs and it is frustrating to see, because a large chunk of the population is in fact influenced by it.
- jmspamerton 8d agoisn't reddit mostly astroturf? Try to get a conflicting opinion on anything political.
- nylonstrung 7d agoThe last few months, Reddit has been inundated with Islamophobic and pro-Israel content from young accounts in a way that wasn't visible before It seems very clearly manipulated
- prollings 8d agoWith the shoehorning of certain topics into absolutely every conversation on every platform... agree.
- jvanderbot 8d agoDoes anyone remember the FTC "comments" about net neutrality? And how completely made up it all was? It must be that everything is like this nowadays.
- Jtsummers 8d agohttps://ktul.com/news/local/data-center-scandal-who-sent-fake-emails-of-support-for-project-atlas https://ktul.com/news/local/data-center-scandal-who-sent-fak... - Naturally, data center projects are also getting in on this made up fun.
- eclipticplane 8d agoNow the propaganda is that the anti data center movement is a fake campaign by China. Which, sure, maybe it's amplified by them but go visit any of these cities public council meetings. People are legit mad about them. Energy prices are already through the roof, they are massive facilities that don't provide much local employment after being built (even the construction crews are contracted in from elsewhere), they get massive tax breaks in exchange for 1 time local development fees, get exempted from noise ordinances, pollution laws, and crammed down communities in backroom deals. Not hard for foreign adversaries to escalate what's already a terrible deal for the citizens of most cities.
- cjkaminski 8d agoYou're very correct. It's much, much easier to amplify sentiment that already exists, as opposed to attempting to manufacture sentiment from nothing at all. That's been true for as long as propaganda has existed, afaik.
- alehlopeh 6d agoI disagree. It seems just as easy to plant a seed for people to latch onto. In my experience, people are unlikely to express any kind of opinion that they haven’t seen someone (anyone) else express first.
- verdverm 8d agowelcome to the post-truth world, where online manipulation are the "truths" like the world's greatest conman "posts," the (mal)intent seems intentional to me
- mmooss 8d agoOne way to look at it: Why wouldn't they use this capability? (Moral qualms?) Powerful interests, including corporations and foreign powers, have long worked effectively to frame public perceptions, even when their access to the members of the public was as limited as newspapers and a few broadcast TV stations, and filtered through editors. And they did it effectively. Have they stopped for some reason? And would they be less effective for some reason? The new tools - direct access to billions of individuals, wide bandwidth, no filters - should make them far more effective. It's amazing to me that the fact of them doing it isn't well-known (there is plenty of research and evidence) and assumed, but still a question even on HN. Bring it up to most people and they will ostracize/ridicule you - an odd response which I can't explain well, given the evidence, likelihood, and very serious consequences which those same people are unhappy with. Interestingly, over the last several years powerful interests have worked - successfully - to shut down research on this issue, including at places like Stanford and Harvard.
- mishellaneous 6d ago> It's amazing to me that the fact of them doing it isn't well-known (there is plenty of research and evidence) and assumed, but still a question even on HN. Bring it up to most people and they will ostracize/ridicule you - an odd response which I can't explain well, given the evidence, likelihood, and very serious consequences which those same people are unhappy with. an explanation would be that these voices doing the ostracizing/ridiculing [anyone who tries to increase awareness of astroturf] are also astroturf. because astroturf is only effective while people are unaware of it. it also seems compatible with the shutdown of research you mention.
- mmooss 5d ago> an explanation would be that these voices doing the ostracizing/ridiculing [anyone who tries to increase awareness of astroturf] are also astroturf. I've thought of that too: 1) I haven't seen evidence, and 2) the people who repeat it are so many and so unaware. That doesn't rule it out, but wow. I guess it shouldn't be surprising - people believe even transparently dangerous nonsense that costs lives by the hundreds of thousands.
- mike_bob 8d agoThis has been ramping up like crazy the past 2 decades ever since the conservative ruling on Citizens United vs FEC where they decided it's a corporations right, as a person (with zero input or approval from it's actual employees), to donate unlimited funds to politicians. The main stream media has whitewashed this topic so much over the years, and now we're seeing government actually suppressing factual reporting, and/or threatening them with lawsuits so they conform. It's insanity, but that's the new GOP for you, all the good people have left or been forced out. The only people pushing back on this are the Bernie Sanders and AOC types, which IMO is far less dangerous, and better for the common person, than a radicalized right wing.
- asdff 8d agoGoes all the way back, beyond the printing press, beyond writing. Mass communication is mass control. The shaman/priest/king/commissar/marketing exec literally shape and control the reality of their flock. They have absolute power to make them march even to their certain deaths against all their best interest. And they will do it singing and smiling as they are slaughtered for you and your gain, and will tell stories of heros who made your profit possible. Truly terrifying technology, the real darker implications of what is possible from mass communication. What strange animals we are: make the right combination of sounds at us and we will turn and kill our kin.
- Slow_Hand 8d agoIt's increasingly practiced in the open in the music industry these days. There was a recent row over the revelation that Chaotic Good, a music marketing company, was astroturfing on behalf of the bands Geese and Sombr. I had a meeting last week with a well-known record producer who tells me labels are increasingly leaning into astroturfing. Just two days ago a colleague told me about his bandmate whose day job is managing five Instagram accounts to astroturf for Mk.Gee. According to her, "Mk.Gee is not allowed to know about it", with the implication that he would reject it if he did.
- hydrogen7800 8d agoMakes payola seem quaint. In fact, past crimes all seem quaint these days.
- mitxela 8d agoThey used to serial kill one person at a time, now they do millions
- specproc 8d agoI worked in PR for a bit. I'm confident in saying most of our information ecosystem is the product of numerous competing (or cooperating) PR agencies pushing their clients' products, policies, narratives, and national agendas. If it's in a big news outlet, there's a pretty good chance someone put it there. Most news stories start life as press releases. Astroturf groups provide the quote-fodder. If you're into this stuff, I can't recommend All the Worst Humans by Phil Elwood enough, fantastic read (to be taken with a pinch of salt, the guy's a PR hack after all). NYT review here: https://archive.md/cNmdV https://archive.md/cNmdV
- catlikesshrimp 8d agoThat's why it is good to have MORE investigative media outlets, not less. Wikileaks and the Panama papers are outliers which must be facilitated.