5 ms·

Whats your solution to the immigration problem in Germany?

NikolaNovak 10d ago
That's a trick question though, and it cunningly pre-supposes / takes-for-granted there IS an "immigration problem", and implicitly that "the immigration problem is the root cause of other problems" (as opposed to, "there are real problems, and some people would like you to think they're because of immigration").
- antisthenes 10d ago
  This kind of non-answer is exactly what leads to far-right parties getting more followers. Tax paying citizens who want their concerns addressed absolutely LOVE hearing that "Ackchyually, your problem doesn't exist and is all in your head". P.S. - I have no skin in the game regarding EU immigration policies, just making an honest observation about engaging with people who might have opposing views.
  - NikolaNovak 10d ago
    That's fair, but context is everything :) I approached it as a discussion on Hacker News, and I think my implicit assumption (which can be challenged!) is that taking a structured, logical approach benefits us all. When I saw what I perceive as a logical fallacy or assumption that takes us on an unproductive path, intended or not, I called it out. In other venues, different approach may be more applicable. To your other point, in case it wasn't clear: * I absolutely do not think there's no problem, or that it's in anybody's head. I think there are a LOT of problems! * At the same time, I strongly think that not-nice, dishonest people are working very very hard, very very consistently, to create an image that somehow immigrants are the root causes of these problems. This has happened myriad times in history, and may sadly be repeating itself. The only answer I ever have for this is, to your point, a non-answer: it's education and information. I think most people propagating immigration as root of all evil are fairly aware that mathematically, socially, statistically, philosophically, logically, this is not supported. It's just intentional fallacy after intentional fallacy, starting with the "Lump of Labor Fallacy". It's clear on its face that if I had 100 people with 100 jobs yesterday, bringing 10 more people won't just magically take jobs without also creating/generating jobs! So I'm happy to discuss immigration problems at any length - but again, I think it's an intentional distraction. To your point, there ARE real problems, of housing and equality and prices and job market, and bad people are trying to make us think they're caused by immigrants, whether for personal profit or because they themselves are part of the actual root cause :-/
    - martin_bech 10d ago
      I find your response insulting, and as the other poster called you out, this is exactly why people are flocking to Afd.. that the “elite” dont take their problems seriously. Im in Denmark and we have tried throwing money and ressources at the issue for 50 years, integration effort after integration effort, and for us the issue isnt money or jobs, we are a rich country with very little unemployment, the issue is gangs, violence, rape, where immigrants are far ahead of anyone.. Just yesterday a new article broke from one of the largest most respected newspapers.. we now face child immigrant gangs of 11-18 year olds, that commit violence. Paywaled link: https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-involveret-i-voldssager-vi-er-som-samfund-noedt-til-at-vaere-bekymret https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-inv...
- balarjin 10d ago
  Fair enough, it should be asked in a neutral way. "Voters perceive problems. As is common in a democracy, voters elect people who propose solutions. Why is no other political party proposing solutions voters see as worth voting for?" If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. As far as I can tell, other political parties have no better answer than name-calling. Am I missing some politician/party that is actually making a real argument?
  - beej71 9d ago
    > If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. Let's say we could demonstrate the problems aren't real beyond any shadow of a doubt. Do you think that would change votes appreciably?
NoMoreNicksLeft 10d ago
What immigration problem? Immigrants are wonderful. Things have only improved in Germany with immigration. It is wrong and unethical to keep immigrants out of your country, you have no right to do so.
- r_lee 10d ago
  what? why can't I then migrate to the US or whatever country I wanna go to?
  - balarjin 10d ago
    The US has one immigration system for honest law-following people (Visas, green cards, etc.) and a second system for people who don't follow rules (walk in from Mexico, overstay a Visa, etc.)

That's a trick question though, and it cunningly pre-supposes / takes-for-granted there IS an "immigration problem", and implicitly that "the immigration problem is the root cause of other problems" (as opposed to, "there are real problems, and some people would like you to think they're because of immigration").

antisthenes 10d ago
This kind of non-answer is exactly what leads to far-right parties getting more followers. Tax paying citizens who want their concerns addressed absolutely LOVE hearing that "Ackchyually, your problem doesn't exist and is all in your head". P.S. - I have no skin in the game regarding EU immigration policies, just making an honest observation about engaging with people who might have opposing views.
- NikolaNovak 10d ago
  That's fair, but context is everything :) I approached it as a discussion on Hacker News, and I think my implicit assumption (which can be challenged!) is that taking a structured, logical approach benefits us all. When I saw what I perceive as a logical fallacy or assumption that takes us on an unproductive path, intended or not, I called it out. In other venues, different approach may be more applicable. To your other point, in case it wasn't clear: * I absolutely do not think there's no problem, or that it's in anybody's head. I think there are a LOT of problems! * At the same time, I strongly think that not-nice, dishonest people are working very very hard, very very consistently, to create an image that somehow immigrants are the root causes of these problems. This has happened myriad times in history, and may sadly be repeating itself. The only answer I ever have for this is, to your point, a non-answer: it's education and information. I think most people propagating immigration as root of all evil are fairly aware that mathematically, socially, statistically, philosophically, logically, this is not supported. It's just intentional fallacy after intentional fallacy, starting with the "Lump of Labor Fallacy". It's clear on its face that if I had 100 people with 100 jobs yesterday, bringing 10 more people won't just magically take jobs without also creating/generating jobs! So I'm happy to discuss immigration problems at any length - but again, I think it's an intentional distraction. To your point, there ARE real problems, of housing and equality and prices and job market, and bad people are trying to make us think they're caused by immigrants, whether for personal profit or because they themselves are part of the actual root cause :-/
  - martin_bech 10d ago
    I find your response insulting, and as the other poster called you out, this is exactly why people are flocking to Afd.. that the “elite” dont take their problems seriously. Im in Denmark and we have tried throwing money and ressources at the issue for 50 years, integration effort after integration effort, and for us the issue isnt money or jobs, we are a rich country with very little unemployment, the issue is gangs, violence, rape, where immigrants are far ahead of anyone.. Just yesterday a new article broke from one of the largest most respected newspapers.. we now face child immigrant gangs of 11-18 year olds, that commit violence. Paywaled link: https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-involveret-i-voldssager-vi-er-som-samfund-noedt-til-at-vaere-bekymret https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-inv...
balarjin 10d ago
Fair enough, it should be asked in a neutral way. "Voters perceive problems. As is common in a democracy, voters elect people who propose solutions. Why is no other political party proposing solutions voters see as worth voting for?" If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. As far as I can tell, other political parties have no better answer than name-calling. Am I missing some politician/party that is actually making a real argument?
- beej71 9d ago
  > If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. Let's say we could demonstrate the problems aren't real beyond any shadow of a doubt. Do you think that would change votes appreciably?

NoMoreNicksLeft 10d ago

What immigration problem? Immigrants are wonderful. Things have only improved in Germany with immigration. It is wrong and unethical to keep immigrants out of your country, you have no right to do so.

r_lee 10d ago
what? why can't I then migrate to the US or whatever country I wanna go to?
- balarjin 10d ago
  The US has one immigration system for honest law-following people (Visas, green cards, etc.) and a second system for people who don't follow rules (walk in from Mexico, overstay a Visa, etc.)