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There is a lot of reasons why automated companies pay more but it is usually to do with augmentation and the remaining skills required being higher on the skill

There is a lot of reasons why automated companies pay more but it is usually to do with augmentation and the remaining skills required being higher on the skills pyramid and more scarce. Efficiency gains usually cause the next bottleneck to be hit requiring more skill and/or experience to fix (higher hanging fruit). Usually the amount of pay increase no way compensates for the total pay lost across all workers - that's one of the incentives to continue with the efficiency gain of course. If it happens too fast only a select few will have jobs because the demand won't have time to match the new supply. All the above assumes you need greater levels of intelligence to deal with the next bottleneck and that intelligence comes from humans as its only source. If AI is more intelligent than humans then this effect - known for most of human history - becomes an invalid assumption of the economic model; bottlenecks and the ability to solve them goes to the highest/cheapest intelligence. IMV should AI do this it would invalidate most economic system assumptions including ones in capitalism, socialism, etc. My base case isn't a positive one sadly of what comes out on the other side.

reasonableklout 11d ago
What's your base case for what comes out on the other side?
- throw234234234 11d ago
  AI feudalism and/or monarchy although that could be quite awhile from now - there will be niches that are harder to integrate with AI that are protected for longer. A few owning everything; most other people surplus to requirements. Capitalism rewards scarcity with higher prices with both financial and social status for those with those scarce outputs - unfortunately what humans can do will become more less scarce relative to capital, land and other resources often owned by the wealthy. Economic rent will move away from skilled labor to other economic inputs. Even people that go off grid and develop self sufficiency will eventually be subsumed by the need to feed more resources to the AI genie to grant more wishes. Whether it is land taxes, forced relocations, etc. Their land will be taken over, mined and or farmed - similar to colonies of old that were technologically less advanced than their invaders. You are already IMV starting to see the beginning signs of the above as AI gets better. More competition in jobs, less certainity for the working class, businesses with other moats using AI to increase profits, data centres vs local communities taking land/energy/water over, AI required commodities increasing in value (e.g copper) and others. There will be more. Modern times where we have democracy and capitalism are a relative recent phenomena when looking at the whole of human history that we take for granted when we shouldn't.
  - reasonableklout 11d ago
    Do you see any way to avoid AI feudalism? Either political or technical. For example, maybe there is sustained demand and development of local models enough for individuals to retain some leverage, economic or otherwise. Perhaps mass movements could subvert the current centralizing forces long enough for this development, and eventually transition to a stable polity where people are given a "personal model" or implanted chip as some kind of human right.
    - throw234234234 10d ago
      The main way would be for people to use local models BEFORE the main AI labs take most of the excess economic activity. This creates demand for direct compute/land/energy rather than AI intelligence and as long as ownership of those stays with communities then a good economic model would be those rents subsidize the community (rather than say a UBI). Open source models will help majorly as long as people are willing to be 1 generation or so behind the latest model which currently isn't the case although I'm hoping it will do the job soon. i.e. the community, rather than AI/big corp, would need to somehow own the scarce assets required for AI and extract economic rent from them. Whether it is energy, land, water, etc. I think its a better system then say UBI because both parties still provide something of value. This isn't my base case but it is possible. It also needs to be done while human power structures still have economic power (i.e. governments) So it would be a combination of political will (i.e. you can't use frontier models unless they can be run by end users) and technical in that you need to have enough compute distributed with the profits of that going to local communities (e.g. data centre rent). When the AI labs engage the community that way they will pay "money" which creates a demand from large corps to local communities and adds life to the monetary system - a good thing. Effectively compute needs to be a commodity that is rent-able/accessible to everyone at competitive prices and have multiple providers. That enables open source models, and allows a spread around the ownership of AI. It can't be hoarded by the AI labs, nor can the chips (e.g. GPU's) have only a few producers.
deepwoods 11d ago
I suspect we will invent bottlenecks for ourselves. There is already so much bureaucratic nonsense involved in knowledge work. For example, in a lot of states for a lot of purposes, a document is invalid if it is not notarized. The notary doesn't really add value in a market sense, we have just decided that you need to go swear in front of another person that you are telling the truth or that the document is genuine. Is it really that much of a stretch to imagine that there will be a human review requirement for lots of things in the future, even if completely irrelevant (or actively detrimental) to the actual work?
- throw234234234 11d ago
  For awhile yes. Its ironic that the least productive people in knowledge work with the cushiest jobs will probably survive the AI wave the most. Because they do little they were probably employed for reasons other than utility/output in the first place - there isn't much to automate anyway. While all the grinding skilled workers get displaced the bureaucracy jobs will remain. Ironic.
deleted 11d ago
[deleted]

reasonableklout 11d ago

What's your base case for what comes out on the other side?

throw234234234 11d ago
AI feudalism and/or monarchy although that could be quite awhile from now - there will be niches that are harder to integrate with AI that are protected for longer. A few owning everything; most other people surplus to requirements. Capitalism rewards scarcity with higher prices with both financial and social status for those with those scarce outputs - unfortunately what humans can do will become more less scarce relative to capital, land and other resources often owned by the wealthy. Economic rent will move away from skilled labor to other economic inputs. Even people that go off grid and develop self sufficiency will eventually be subsumed by the need to feed more resources to the AI genie to grant more wishes. Whether it is land taxes, forced relocations, etc. Their land will be taken over, mined and or farmed - similar to colonies of old that were technologically less advanced than their invaders. You are already IMV starting to see the beginning signs of the above as AI gets better. More competition in jobs, less certainity for the working class, businesses with other moats using AI to increase profits, data centres vs local communities taking land/energy/water over, AI required commodities increasing in value (e.g copper) and others. There will be more. Modern times where we have democracy and capitalism are a relative recent phenomena when looking at the whole of human history that we take for granted when we shouldn't.
- reasonableklout 11d ago
  Do you see any way to avoid AI feudalism? Either political or technical. For example, maybe there is sustained demand and development of local models enough for individuals to retain some leverage, economic or otherwise. Perhaps mass movements could subvert the current centralizing forces long enough for this development, and eventually transition to a stable polity where people are given a "personal model" or implanted chip as some kind of human right.
  - throw234234234 10d ago
    The main way would be for people to use local models BEFORE the main AI labs take most of the excess economic activity. This creates demand for direct compute/land/energy rather than AI intelligence and as long as ownership of those stays with communities then a good economic model would be those rents subsidize the community (rather than say a UBI). Open source models will help majorly as long as people are willing to be 1 generation or so behind the latest model which currently isn't the case although I'm hoping it will do the job soon. i.e. the community, rather than AI/big corp, would need to somehow own the scarce assets required for AI and extract economic rent from them. Whether it is energy, land, water, etc. I think its a better system then say UBI because both parties still provide something of value. This isn't my base case but it is possible. It also needs to be done while human power structures still have economic power (i.e. governments) So it would be a combination of political will (i.e. you can't use frontier models unless they can be run by end users) and technical in that you need to have enough compute distributed with the profits of that going to local communities (e.g. data centre rent). When the AI labs engage the community that way they will pay "money" which creates a demand from large corps to local communities and adds life to the monetary system - a good thing. Effectively compute needs to be a commodity that is rent-able/accessible to everyone at competitive prices and have multiple providers. That enables open source models, and allows a spread around the ownership of AI. It can't be hoarded by the AI labs, nor can the chips (e.g. GPU's) have only a few producers.

deepwoods 11d ago

I suspect we will invent bottlenecks for ourselves. There is already so much bureaucratic nonsense involved in knowledge work. For example, in a lot of states for a lot of purposes, a document is invalid if it is not notarized. The notary doesn't really add value in a market sense, we have just decided that you need to go swear in front of another person that you are telling the truth or that the document is genuine. Is it really that much of a stretch to imagine that there will be a human review requirement for lots of things in the future, even if completely irrelevant (or actively detrimental) to the actual work?

throw234234234 11d ago
For awhile yes. Its ironic that the least productive people in knowledge work with the cushiest jobs will probably survive the AI wave the most. Because they do little they were probably employed for reasons other than utility/output in the first place - there isn't much to automate anyway. While all the grinding skilled workers get displaced the bureaucracy jobs will remain. Ironic.

deleted 11d ago

[deleted]