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Correct. You may demand clean water from your local government, in return for taxes, but it isn't any sort of basic right. And certainly is not mentioned in the

Correct. You may demand clean water from your local government, in return for taxes, but it isn't any sort of basic right. And certainly is not mentioned in the US Constitution. Much like food or medical care: fundamental rights can never depend on the work of other people. Otherwise you can demand that work, which imposes on their rights.

rbanffy 10d ago
> fundamental rights can never depend on the work of other people It is the government’s responsibility to ensure the people who provide those services are hired and paid. Nobody is demanding anyone to work for free or to be forced to work on something they don’t want. At some point, we might get there and mechanisms to compel society to work enough so that society doesn’t collapse will be considered some sort of civic duty.
iamEAP 10d ago
Access to clean water may not be enshrined in the US constitution, but it’s not accurate to say it’s not “any sort of basic right.” It’s enshrined explicitly as such in a variety of UN documents and EU laws and instruments. I wish more of my fellow Americans had a better idea of what fundamental rights the US has chosen not integrate into domestic law over the past 8 or so decades.
- rbanffy 10d ago
  I might be mistaken, but when an international treaty is ratified, it has the same weight as a constitutional amendment. I’m sure the US ratified something around those lines.
  - iamEAP 9d ago
    It is unfortunately not that straightforward in the case of the US. For example, the ICCPR was ratified by the US, but declared “not self-executing.” The ICESCR was never ratified.
    - rbanffy 9d ago
      Well... The US has been getting away with all sorts of shenanigans for the past century. I think it's time to grow up and behave like an adult country. Which won't happen until it has an adult president, but that's a different story.
rassimmoc 10d ago
what a nonsense. Is 2nd amendment forcing anyone to make guns? Is US hiding population of enslaved workers that are forced to dig up metal, work it, make guns and sell them?
- rbanffy 10d ago
  I don’t think that many Americans would keep their jobs if it were not for the threat of abject poverty looming over their heads.
  - rassimmoc 10d ago
    not sure I understand what you are trying to say witht regard to my comment
    - rbanffy 10d ago
      You are all kind of forced to work. In fact, we all are. The most cruel part is that a lot of people work on things that result in no meaningful benefit for society.
adipose 10d ago
Huh? Something being a "right" doesn't mean it's a magical force that overrides all others. Rights are always in tension with other rights. A society deciding something is a "right" is a statement about priorities and values. On the medical care example, most countries have something like the US's EMTALA -- not a Constitutional right but but a de facto "right to medical care" in emergency rooms and some other carve-outs. But the fundamental right to medical care this codifies doesn't just override all other things. You'll get rightfully and legally-correctly turned away from an ER if you are extremely violent and belligerent, and cannot be reasonably stabilized enough for everyone else in the ER to be safe. If you're in a remote area and need a airlift, but the weather conditions are not reasonably safe for the only helicopter crew available -- as determined by themselves -- then they're not obligated to rescue you, either morally or legally.
ceejayoz 10d ago
> fundamental rights can never depend on the work of other people So public defenders and public school teachers aren't a thing? Jury duty can't be compelled? Conscription like in WWII?

rbanffy 10d ago

> fundamental rights can never depend on the work of other people It is the government’s responsibility to ensure the people who provide those services are hired and paid. Nobody is demanding anyone to work for free or to be forced to work on something they don’t want. At some point, we might get there and mechanisms to compel society to work enough so that society doesn’t collapse will be considered some sort of civic duty.

iamEAP 10d ago

Access to clean water may not be enshrined in the US constitution, but it’s not accurate to say it’s not “any sort of basic right.” It’s enshrined explicitly as such in a variety of UN documents and EU laws and instruments. I wish more of my fellow Americans had a better idea of what fundamental rights the US has chosen not integrate into domestic law over the past 8 or so decades.

rbanffy 10d ago
I might be mistaken, but when an international treaty is ratified, it has the same weight as a constitutional amendment. I’m sure the US ratified something around those lines.
- iamEAP 9d ago
  It is unfortunately not that straightforward in the case of the US. For example, the ICCPR was ratified by the US, but declared “not self-executing.” The ICESCR was never ratified.
  - rbanffy 9d ago
    Well... The US has been getting away with all sorts of shenanigans for the past century. I think it's time to grow up and behave like an adult country. Which won't happen until it has an adult president, but that's a different story.

rassimmoc 10d ago

what a nonsense. Is 2nd amendment forcing anyone to make guns? Is US hiding population of enslaved workers that are forced to dig up metal, work it, make guns and sell them?

rbanffy 10d ago
I don’t think that many Americans would keep their jobs if it were not for the threat of abject poverty looming over their heads.
- rassimmoc 10d ago
  not sure I understand what you are trying to say witht regard to my comment
  - rbanffy 10d ago
    You are all kind of forced to work. In fact, we all are. The most cruel part is that a lot of people work on things that result in no meaningful benefit for society.

adipose 10d ago

Huh? Something being a "right" doesn't mean it's a magical force that overrides all others. Rights are always in tension with other rights. A society deciding something is a "right" is a statement about priorities and values. On the medical care example, most countries have something like the US's EMTALA -- not a Constitutional right but but a de facto "right to medical care" in emergency rooms and some other carve-outs. But the fundamental right to medical care this codifies doesn't just override all other things. You'll get rightfully and legally-correctly turned away from an ER if you are extremely violent and belligerent, and cannot be reasonably stabilized enough for everyone else in the ER to be safe. If you're in a remote area and need a airlift, but the weather conditions are not reasonably safe for the only helicopter crew available -- as determined by themselves -- then they're not obligated to rescue you, either morally or legally.

ceejayoz 10d ago

> fundamental rights can never depend on the work of other people So public defenders and public school teachers aren't a thing? Jury duty can't be compelled? Conscription like in WWII?