6 ms·

Does music come from first principles, or is it a cultural product that's a result of a feedback loop between a listener/practitioner and an ambient culture and

Does music come from first principles, or is it a cultural product that's a result of a feedback loop between a listener/practitioner and an ambient culture and technological landscape? Parrotting is exactly how we learn music- we hear, and we reproduce what we hear. What you call "deriving music from first principles", I call, "post-facto justification for arbitrary aesthetic tendencies".

strenholme 11d ago
It’s actually an open question of whether “natural” tuning is 3-limit or 5-limit tuning. Five limit tuning, which I discuss above and use to form a major scale, goes back to Ptolemy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy's_intense_diatonic_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy's_intense_diatonic_sca... Other ancient tuning systems are based on three limit tuning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27er_l%C3%BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27er_l%C3%BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning Whether the human ear naturally prefers 5/4 (5-limit) over 81/64 (Pythagorean) for the major third, and 6/5 over 32/27 for the minor third, is still something I don’t have solid research on. As it turns out, the modern western scale is more closely aligned with Pythagorean tuning than with five-limit tuning. In particular, the Pythagorean thirds are closer to modern 12-tone equal tempered thirds than they are to five limit thirds.
- strenholme 10d ago
  Talking to myself, some research here. https://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/pyth5.html https://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/pyth5.html >>>Around 1300, the English theorist Walter Odington proposes that major and minor thirds (81:64, 32:27) have ratios close to 5:4 and 6:5 respectively, and that singers lean toward these simpler ratios. His observation may reflect the style of much English polyphony of the period, where thirds often have a pervasive role in the texture and may even serve as closing sonorities.<<< https://casfaculty.case.edu/ross-duffin/just-intonation-in-renaissance-theory-practice/theoretical-background/ https://casfaculty.case.edu/ross-duffin/just-intonation-in-r... >>>Beginning with Ramos de Pareja in 1482,Fn11 the simple ratios of Just intonation began to be cited by theorists and used in their divisions of the monochord. [...] an octave is 2:1, a fifth is 3:2, a fourth is 4:3, a pure major third is 5:4, a pure minor third is 6:5. These “six-limit” ratios—the senarius, or senario, as Zarlino calls them—are the basic harmonic intervals. Zarlino attributed almost mystical significance to the senario<<< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gioseffo_Zarlino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gioseffo_Zarlino https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/000313131706700215?int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.7= https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/000313131706700215?... This article is paywalled, but to summarize, it makes the case that the 5:4 and 6:5 ratios are ratios musicians naturally drift towards in polyphonic contexts.
  - throwaway91827 8d ago
    Just wanted to say, thank you for the detailed response, I suppose my comment looks a bit glib in comparison. I appreciate this perspective- I knew about some basic elements of tuning and acoustics, but it's fascinating that there's this much structure that you can study in it, I understand the interest. It reminds me a bit of regular polygons or simple geometry like circles- and it makes sense the Greeks would be interested in both- things that are pleasant and can combine and tile well because of their symmetric and regular properties. I think my "pushback" was more just at the phrasing of "why" something sounds "good"- I do think when we listen to music, we bring our past and our culture into it, and whether a chord sounds "sad" or "happy" depends on a lot more than just the harmonic structure- I wonder about this concept of "tension" you bring up, I can't tell if you mean something emotional or more mechanical. Is that like something you understand just by crunching the numbers on the ratios?

strenholme 11d ago

It’s actually an open question of whether “natural” tuning is 3-limit or 5-limit tuning. Five limit tuning, which I discuss above and use to form a major scale, goes back to Ptolemy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy's_intense_diatonic_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy's_intense_diatonic_sca... Other ancient tuning systems are based on three limit tuning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27er_l%C3%BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27er_l%C3%BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning Whether the human ear naturally prefers 5/4 (5-limit) over 81/64 (Pythagorean) for the major third, and 6/5 over 32/27 for the minor third, is still something I don’t have solid research on. As it turns out, the modern western scale is more closely aligned with Pythagorean tuning than with five-limit tuning. In particular, the Pythagorean thirds are closer to modern 12-tone equal tempered thirds than they are to five limit thirds.

strenholme 10d ago
Talking to myself, some research here. https://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/pyth5.html https://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/pyth5.html >>>Around 1300, the English theorist Walter Odington proposes that major and minor thirds (81:64, 32:27) have ratios close to 5:4 and 6:5 respectively, and that singers lean toward these simpler ratios. His observation may reflect the style of much English polyphony of the period, where thirds often have a pervasive role in the texture and may even serve as closing sonorities.<<< https://casfaculty.case.edu/ross-duffin/just-intonation-in-renaissance-theory-practice/theoretical-background/ https://casfaculty.case.edu/ross-duffin/just-intonation-in-r... >>>Beginning with Ramos de Pareja in 1482,Fn11 the simple ratios of Just intonation began to be cited by theorists and used in their divisions of the monochord. [...] an octave is 2:1, a fifth is 3:2, a fourth is 4:3, a pure major third is 5:4, a pure minor third is 6:5. These “six-limit” ratios—the senarius, or senario, as Zarlino calls them—are the basic harmonic intervals. Zarlino attributed almost mystical significance to the senario<<< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gioseffo_Zarlino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gioseffo_Zarlino https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/000313131706700215?int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.7= https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/000313131706700215?... This article is paywalled, but to summarize, it makes the case that the 5:4 and 6:5 ratios are ratios musicians naturally drift towards in polyphonic contexts.
- throwaway91827 8d ago
  Just wanted to say, thank you for the detailed response, I suppose my comment looks a bit glib in comparison. I appreciate this perspective- I knew about some basic elements of tuning and acoustics, but it's fascinating that there's this much structure that you can study in it, I understand the interest. It reminds me a bit of regular polygons or simple geometry like circles- and it makes sense the Greeks would be interested in both- things that are pleasant and can combine and tile well because of their symmetric and regular properties. I think my "pushback" was more just at the phrasing of "why" something sounds "good"- I do think when we listen to music, we bring our past and our culture into it, and whether a chord sounds "sad" or "happy" depends on a lot more than just the harmonic structure- I wonder about this concept of "tension" you bring up, I can't tell if you mean something emotional or more mechanical. Is that like something you understand just by crunching the numbers on the ratios?