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IRGC, Hamas, Hizballah and maybe others are far right organizations, so I don't think this is purely left/right. And what about signal? I am pretty sure many v

by msm_ 10d ago

IRGC, Hamas, Hizballah and maybe others are far right organizations, so I don't think this is purely left/right. And what about signal? I am pretty sure many violent/terrorist groups use it too. I don't have an opinion about this group, because I didn't even know it existed. But, like often with things related to the free speech, I think this topic is more complex than you make it out to be.

politician 10d ago
No one believes pro-Hamas activists in the US are voting for Trump.
- pepperoni_pizza 10d ago
  > No one believes pro-Hamas activists in the US are voting for Trump. Because "pro-Hamas activists" don't exist.
- kennywinker 10d ago
  "pro-hamas activists" is approximately nobody.
  - fastball 10d ago
    Very clearly untrue. Just search for "people waving hamas paraglider flags" on Google and you will find plenty of sources[1], like this. Basically every movement/organization on earth has activists who support their activities, why would Hamas be any different? There are people everywhere who don't mind violence/killing and there are people everywhere who are anti-semitic. You think the intersection of those two cohorts is empty? [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68275185 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68275185
    - tancop 10d ago
      People who are anti-semitic and violent call themselves Proud Boys and Restore Britain. It's true that a lot of radical leftists do "critical support" for Hamas, just like they used to with the IRA or ETA. But that's the same thing as the US government supporting Islamists against the Soviet Union and Reagan funding right wing militias in Nicaragua. It's defending a resistance movement on some parts of their agenda even if you disagree with the rest, because you think they're fighting for a good cause against a common enemy. Some Hamas leaders, individuals within the party, want to massacre Jewish villages to drive all Jews out of Palestine. Almost no one in the student protests was defending that. But when it's the other way around all the Western leaders rush to defend the Israeli government saying it's just two insane ministers in a big cabinet and the rest will talk them into submission. That's clearly not true when you see a lot of their ideas getting implemented. If the conflict was just Israel against Hamas it would be one of the situations where everybody involved sucks and there's no clear answer to anything so you should stay neutral. But the Israeli government is treating it as a war against Palestine where they allow their soldiers to rape and kill civilians, you can hear generals publicly setting kill targets and "security" policies that were already close to Apartheid level are getting stricter every week. They see every Arab as a legitimate target. That tips the balance to the point where you can argue that supporting any resistance, even violent nationalist Hamas, is the only right move.
      - fastball 10d ago
        I appreciate your wanting to introduce nuance into the discussion, but nuance isn't really needed here. Two commenters replied to GP saying "Pro-hamas activists don't exist", which is untrue. That was my claim, and that was basically all GP said as well (with the additional assertion that such people are not voting for Trump). Why they are supporting Hamas is beside the point. This conversation is basically the "it's not happening" > "it might be happening" > "it's happening and it's good actually" meme, though admittedly not by one person.
        politician 10d ago
        My point was simply that foreign "far right" organizations are not the same as the "right" organizations belonging to the left vs right paradigm in the United States. Hamas is not equivalent to the Republican Party. Fastball here is the only one that wasn't triggered by this observation.
graemep 10d ago
Their supporters in the west form alliances with the left. I do not think you can meaningfully fit them in a left vs right classification. There are many groups in the world that take bits from left and right. There are ethno-nationalist communists, for examlle.
- bakies 10d ago
  Can you describe those alliances?
  - stale2002 10d ago
    Yeah, the basic alliance is that anyone who wants to harm the USA nominally is ok with working together regardless of contradicting underlying ideology. That why you'll see russia, iranian, marxist, and anarchist supporters/ideologies all using the same talking points.
    - bakies 10d ago
      You didn't describe any relationships. I don't think leftists are intending harm on the USA
      - stale2002 9d ago
        Far leftists are quite open about how they think the USA is the evil empire and that Russian, China, Iran, ect are the "multipolar" world that they support. You must be thinking of progressives who merely want free healthcare. Sure, an average bernie fan who wants some more government programs doesn't want the USA to fail. Instead, I am talking about the campists, the far lefties, or the "tankies" that they are sometimes called.
        bakies 9d ago
        I don't think cooling off the empirical war machine is "harming the USA"

by msm_ 10d ago

politician 10d ago

No one believes pro-Hamas activists in the US are voting for Trump.

pepperoni_pizza 10d ago
> No one believes pro-Hamas activists in the US are voting for Trump. Because "pro-Hamas activists" don't exist.
kennywinker 10d ago
"pro-hamas activists" is approximately nobody.
- fastball 10d ago
  Very clearly untrue. Just search for "people waving hamas paraglider flags" on Google and you will find plenty of sources[1], like this. Basically every movement/organization on earth has activists who support their activities, why would Hamas be any different? There are people everywhere who don't mind violence/killing and there are people everywhere who are anti-semitic. You think the intersection of those two cohorts is empty? [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68275185 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68275185
  - tancop 10d ago
    People who are anti-semitic and violent call themselves Proud Boys and Restore Britain. It's true that a lot of radical leftists do "critical support" for Hamas, just like they used to with the IRA or ETA. But that's the same thing as the US government supporting Islamists against the Soviet Union and Reagan funding right wing militias in Nicaragua. It's defending a resistance movement on some parts of their agenda even if you disagree with the rest, because you think they're fighting for a good cause against a common enemy. Some Hamas leaders, individuals within the party, want to massacre Jewish villages to drive all Jews out of Palestine. Almost no one in the student protests was defending that. But when it's the other way around all the Western leaders rush to defend the Israeli government saying it's just two insane ministers in a big cabinet and the rest will talk them into submission. That's clearly not true when you see a lot of their ideas getting implemented. If the conflict was just Israel against Hamas it would be one of the situations where everybody involved sucks and there's no clear answer to anything so you should stay neutral. But the Israeli government is treating it as a war against Palestine where they allow their soldiers to rape and kill civilians, you can hear generals publicly setting kill targets and "security" policies that were already close to Apartheid level are getting stricter every week. They see every Arab as a legitimate target. That tips the balance to the point where you can argue that supporting any resistance, even violent nationalist Hamas, is the only right move.
    - fastball 10d ago
      I appreciate your wanting to introduce nuance into the discussion, but nuance isn't really needed here. Two commenters replied to GP saying "Pro-hamas activists don't exist", which is untrue. That was my claim, and that was basically all GP said as well (with the additional assertion that such people are not voting for Trump). Why they are supporting Hamas is beside the point. This conversation is basically the "it's not happening" > "it might be happening" > "it's happening and it's good actually" meme, though admittedly not by one person.
      - politician 10d ago
        My point was simply that foreign "far right" organizations are not the same as the "right" organizations belonging to the left vs right paradigm in the United States. Hamas is not equivalent to the Republican Party. Fastball here is the only one that wasn't triggered by this observation.

graemep 10d ago

Their supporters in the west form alliances with the left. I do not think you can meaningfully fit them in a left vs right classification. There are many groups in the world that take bits from left and right. There are ethno-nationalist communists, for examlle.

bakies 10d ago
Can you describe those alliances?
- stale2002 10d ago
  Yeah, the basic alliance is that anyone who wants to harm the USA nominally is ok with working together regardless of contradicting underlying ideology. That why you'll see russia, iranian, marxist, and anarchist supporters/ideologies all using the same talking points.
  - bakies 10d ago
    You didn't describe any relationships. I don't think leftists are intending harm on the USA
    - stale2002 9d ago
      Far leftists are quite open about how they think the USA is the evil empire and that Russian, China, Iran, ect are the "multipolar" world that they support. You must be thinking of progressives who merely want free healthcare. Sure, an average bernie fan who wants some more government programs doesn't want the USA to fail. Instead, I am talking about the campists, the far lefties, or the "tankies" that they are sometimes called.
      - bakies 9d ago
        I don't think cooling off the empirical war machine is "harming the USA"