6 ms·

Okay, but I don't wanna. Would you have defended that same thesis in 1934 Germany, when the Right was pushing further and further into illiberalism? Should the

by thrance 10d ago

Okay, but I don't wanna. Would you have defended that same thesis in 1934 Germany, when the Right was pushing further and further into illiberalism? Should the Jews and Leftists have overlooked the mounting hate they received from society? No, what actually got rid of Nazism in the post-war era was how shameful it was to be perceived as one. That's how we overcame racism and homophobia too: by making it socially unacceptable to be such. So if you care about anything, you can't just treat "support for Trump" as simply another mundane personal preference. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't treat Trump supporters with empathy, just that ignoring their garbage views is not helping anyone or anything.

card_zero 10d ago
One point is that being in an actual war changes the rules. If you're caught in a desperate fight for your civilization, you'll put civility on hold, because being polite wouldn't do any good and you're too busy being desperate. But unless you love living like you're in a warzone, you probably prefer to maintain civility at all other times. So you ask what one should do in 1934, on the cusp of war, in a pre-war situation. That kind of depends on knowing that it's a pre-war situation and knowing that things are desperate and that you should throw civility out of the window. If I was strongly aware of that fact (as some were), I'd be thinking mainly "how do I keep a low profile and escape from Germany," not "how do I tell the fascists that I disapprove of all they stand for". But I suppose there's a kind of antsy ambiguous semi-desperate state that just makes people angry without fully committing to desperation. Post-war is different of course because then you've won, and it's socially acceptable to be rude to nazis, the conventionally accepted bad guys. Common consent encourages it. It's a civil kind of rudeness!
- thrance 10d ago
  It wasn't clear at all in 1934 that a war was coming. Maybe the most educated and politically conscious could have foreseen that something bad was going to happen, but I'd wager most of the World was clueless about Nazism up until its very end. I would direct you to the international press' commentary on the opening of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. Lots of "Whatever should we think of this new Germany?". But we are not in wartimes, and my comment wasn't telling people that they should act as if we were. If anything, tolerating and overlooking bigotry isn't civism, it's how we invite incivility in our societies. Hence why I believe we shouldn't normalize the views of MAGA more than they already are. We're not in the same place Germany was in the 1930s, and I don't intend us to ever get there.

by thrance 10d ago

card_zero 10d ago

One point is that being in an actual war changes the rules. If you're caught in a desperate fight for your civilization, you'll put civility on hold, because being polite wouldn't do any good and you're too busy being desperate. But unless you love living like you're in a warzone, you probably prefer to maintain civility at all other times. So you ask what one should do in 1934, on the cusp of war, in a pre-war situation. That kind of depends on knowing that it's a pre-war situation and knowing that things are desperate and that you should throw civility out of the window. If I was strongly aware of that fact (as some were), I'd be thinking mainly "how do I keep a low profile and escape from Germany," not "how do I tell the fascists that I disapprove of all they stand for". But I suppose there's a kind of antsy ambiguous semi-desperate state that just makes people angry without fully committing to desperation. Post-war is different of course because then you've won, and it's socially acceptable to be rude to nazis, the conventionally accepted bad guys. Common consent encourages it. It's a civil kind of rudeness!

thrance 10d ago
It wasn't clear at all in 1934 that a war was coming. Maybe the most educated and politically conscious could have foreseen that something bad was going to happen, but I'd wager most of the World was clueless about Nazism up until its very end. I would direct you to the international press' commentary on the opening of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. Lots of "Whatever should we think of this new Germany?". But we are not in wartimes, and my comment wasn't telling people that they should act as if we were. If anything, tolerating and overlooking bigotry isn't civism, it's how we invite incivility in our societies. Hence why I believe we shouldn't normalize the views of MAGA more than they already are. We're not in the same place Germany was in the 1930s, and I don't intend us to ever get there.