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Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe?

by anonymars 11d ago

AshleyGrant 11d ago
Orbital? Maybe not. Sub-orbital and ballistic? Absolutely.
- anonymars 11d ago
  Oh yes, I think everyone remembers Germany's ballistic rockets "Don't say that he's hypocritical, Say rather that he's apolitical. 'Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department,' says Wernher von Braun." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio
  - globalnode 11d ago
    hehe, yes but if it wasnt for german rocket scientists the americans and russians would not have had space agencies (at least not that early)
    - m4rtink 11d ago
      Well, there was Goddard, Korolev & quite a few others. But it could indeed have taken longer if the military implications were not clearly demonstrated by Von Braun. Still, an interesting possibility of a fully civilian space program from the start & how it would look like & how it would be different. Kinda like in Wings of Honneamise.
      - dotancohen 11d ago
        Not only the military aspect. His staff literally were absorbed into the Russian sand US space programs. Von Braun himself famously designed the Saturn V.
        drysine 11d ago
        >His staff literally were absorbed into the Russian sand US space programs. Not really in case of the USSR. German group in Russia was isolated and Korolev didn't like competition. Soviet space program started by replicating German rocket, but once all production chains were created, it was off on its own course. I highly recommend English translation of memoirs of Boris Chertok[0] to anyone interested in the history of Soviet space program. [0] https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-publications-and-resources/nasa-history-series/rockets-and-people/ https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-publications-and-resour...
        flohofwoe 11d ago
        That was just because the Russian's didn't trust "their" Germans as much as the Americans trusted "theirs". Operation Osoaviakhim was mostly about knowledge extraction, not about cooperation. The other difference was that the "Russian Germans" didn't go to Russia on their own will (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim). Once the knowledge was "extracted" the Germans were allowed to return though (good thing Stalin was already dead at that time). Former Junkers engineer Brunolf Baade then went on to build the first and only German jet airliner for East Germany - which then of course was cancelled as soon as it was ready to enter production: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152).
        drysine 10d ago
        >as the Americans trusted "theirs" Americans didn't trust either. But then Sputnik happened and Americans only had oopsnik[0], so they turned to neglected Redstone made by von Braun[1][2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_TV-3#Reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_TV-3#Reaction [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorer_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorer_1 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#U.S._Army_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#U.S._Army_ca...
cccbbbaaa 11d ago
From a sovereignty perspective, does a launch from continental Europe actually matter when Arianespace/CNES/ESA has been launching from France for decades?
- vik0 11d ago
  There is no sovereignty perspective because Europe isn't even sovereign to begin with. For starters it doesn't even have a common army
  - deleted 11d ago
    [deleted]
  - gpm 11d ago
    The sovereignty perspective here is the perspective of the sovereignty of the states that make up Europe not the sovereignty of the entity of the EU/Europe. Though not every sovereign state has an army, see Iceland, Costa Rica, theoretically Japan, etc.
- orphereus 11d ago
  Doesn't it matter if this part of France is an ocean away?
  - cccbbbaaa 11d ago
    I do not think so, but anyway, it is definitely not a proof that we are further decoupling ourselves from the US, which is the claim made in the root comment. France has launched rockets from France for decades. Being an ocean away does not make Kourou reliant on the US.
    - orphereus 11d ago
      I think the opposite because in this specific case we have the US which has the world's strongest navy, and the strongest navy by far in the Atlantic. My opinion is that there is an implied reliance on the US "allowing" Europe to ship the rockets to Kourou and launch them there. If our relations ever completely sour, the US might, for example, take over the shipping vessels going to Kourou, kinda like Europe takes over Russian shadow fleet vessels. Now all of a sudden Europe has no means of launching rockets, except now it can launch to polar orbits. It might seem a stretch, but there is a non-zero chance that could happen, therefore it is better to have an alternative.
pseudohadamard 11d ago
Yes, but most of them in the early 1940s.
rbanffy 10d ago
Britain’s Black Arrow could, but it launched from a RAF base in Australia. Definitely not continental Europe, but part of Europe if you consider it from the Eurovision point of view. A real shame Britain abandoned their own research.
- snowpid 10d ago
  I see your point and I guees this venn diagram (on 3) needs an update. https://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-europe https://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-eu...
swiftcoder 10d ago
> Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe? Continental Europe? yes. The Russian's Plesetsk Cosmodrome is well within the boundaries of the European continent. Continental Europe outside of Russian influence? no.
- cromka 10d ago
  But also: European Union? Yes, French Guyana is a regular administrative part of France and a EU territory.
  - NetMageSCW 10d ago
    So continental EU :)
carlosjobim 10d ago
A lot, but just not into orbit. For example from the Kiruna space base in Sweden. And of course the original rocket missiles developed by von Braun and used to bomb London.
pvaldes 10d ago
> Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe? Yes. A Spanish private company launched the Miura 1 from Huelva (South of Spain) in 2023. In any case it was programmed to reach only 46 Km high in the first attempt, and suffered damages after landing in the ocean at the expected coordinates. It seems that a loan to finish its successor, the reusable rocket Miura 5, were granted in April of this year and that its first test flight is expected for the end of 2026, so Germany is not the only European country trying this.

Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe?

AshleyGrant 11d ago

Orbital? Maybe not. Sub-orbital and ballistic? Absolutely.

anonymars 11d ago
Oh yes, I think everyone remembers Germany's ballistic rockets "Don't say that he's hypocritical, Say rather that he's apolitical. 'Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department,' says Wernher von Braun." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio
- globalnode 11d ago
  hehe, yes but if it wasnt for german rocket scientists the americans and russians would not have had space agencies (at least not that early)
  - m4rtink 11d ago
    Well, there was Goddard, Korolev & quite a few others. But it could indeed have taken longer if the military implications were not clearly demonstrated by Von Braun. Still, an interesting possibility of a fully civilian space program from the start & how it would look like & how it would be different. Kinda like in Wings of Honneamise.
    - dotancohen 11d ago
      Not only the military aspect. His staff literally were absorbed into the Russian sand US space programs. Von Braun himself famously designed the Saturn V.
      - drysine 11d ago
        >His staff literally were absorbed into the Russian sand US space programs. Not really in case of the USSR. German group in Russia was isolated and Korolev didn't like competition. Soviet space program started by replicating German rocket, but once all production chains were created, it was off on its own course. I highly recommend English translation of memoirs of Boris Chertok[0] to anyone interested in the history of Soviet space program. [0] https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-publications-and-resources/nasa-history-series/rockets-and-people/ https://www.nasa.gov/history/history-publications-and-resour...
        flohofwoe 11d ago
        That was just because the Russian's didn't trust "their" Germans as much as the Americans trusted "theirs". Operation Osoaviakhim was mostly about knowledge extraction, not about cooperation. The other difference was that the "Russian Germans" didn't go to Russia on their own will (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim). Once the knowledge was "extracted" the Germans were allowed to return though (good thing Stalin was already dead at that time). Former Junkers engineer Brunolf Baade then went on to build the first and only German jet airliner for East Germany - which then of course was cancelled as soon as it was ready to enter production: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152).
        drysine 10d ago
        >as the Americans trusted "theirs" Americans didn't trust either. But then Sputnik happened and Americans only had oopsnik[0], so they turned to neglected Redstone made by von Braun[1][2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_TV-3#Reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_TV-3#Reaction [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorer_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorer_1 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#U.S._Army_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#U.S._Army_ca...

cccbbbaaa 11d ago

From a sovereignty perspective, does a launch from continental Europe actually matter when Arianespace/CNES/ESA has been launching from France for decades?

vik0 11d ago
There is no sovereignty perspective because Europe isn't even sovereign to begin with. For starters it doesn't even have a common army
- deleted 11d ago
  [deleted]
- gpm 11d ago
  The sovereignty perspective here is the perspective of the sovereignty of the states that make up Europe not the sovereignty of the entity of the EU/Europe. Though not every sovereign state has an army, see Iceland, Costa Rica, theoretically Japan, etc.
orphereus 11d ago
Doesn't it matter if this part of France is an ocean away?
- cccbbbaaa 11d ago
  I do not think so, but anyway, it is definitely not a proof that we are further decoupling ourselves from the US, which is the claim made in the root comment. France has launched rockets from France for decades. Being an ocean away does not make Kourou reliant on the US.
  - orphereus 11d ago
    I think the opposite because in this specific case we have the US which has the world's strongest navy, and the strongest navy by far in the Atlantic. My opinion is that there is an implied reliance on the US "allowing" Europe to ship the rockets to Kourou and launch them there. If our relations ever completely sour, the US might, for example, take over the shipping vessels going to Kourou, kinda like Europe takes over Russian shadow fleet vessels. Now all of a sudden Europe has no means of launching rockets, except now it can launch to polar orbits. It might seem a stretch, but there is a non-zero chance that could happen, therefore it is better to have an alternative.

pseudohadamard 11d ago

Yes, but most of them in the early 1940s.

rbanffy 10d ago

Britain’s Black Arrow could, but it launched from a RAF base in Australia. Definitely not continental Europe, but part of Europe if you consider it from the Eurovision point of view. A real shame Britain abandoned their own research.

snowpid 10d ago
I see your point and I guees this venn diagram (on 3) needs an update. https://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-europe https://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-eu...

swiftcoder 10d ago

> Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe? Continental Europe? yes. The Russian's Plesetsk Cosmodrome is well within the boundaries of the European continent. Continental Europe outside of Russian influence? no.

cromka 10d ago
But also: European Union? Yes, French Guyana is a regular administrative part of France and a EU territory.
- NetMageSCW 10d ago
  So continental EU :)

carlosjobim 10d ago

A lot, but just not into orbit. For example from the Kiruna space base in Sweden. And of course the original rocket missiles developed by von Braun and used to bomb London.

pvaldes 10d ago

> Have there been other rocket launches from continental Europe? Yes. A Spanish private company launched the Miura 1 from Huelva (South of Spain) in 2023. In any case it was programmed to reach only 46 Km high in the first attempt, and suffered damages after landing in the ocean at the expected coordinates. It seems that a loan to finish its successor, the reusable rocket Miura 5, were granted in April of this year and that its first test flight is expected for the end of 2026, so Germany is not the only European country trying this.