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Yeah I get that. But having been both it doesn’t advocate for better treatment for any of them. Also as far as I’m aware the pay for programmers in the US has

Yeah I get that. But having been both it doesn’t advocate for better treatment for any of them. Also as far as I’m aware the pay for programmers in the US has always been an isolated thing with the rest of the world ranging from normal to “literal sweatshop”.

tptacek 11d ago
What do you mean, "advocating for better treatment"? They're not describing an abuse of tradespeople and professionals. They're adults doing a job.
- ofjcihen 11d ago
  So, from your comment and your reply, are you just happy that more people are being treated poorly? That makes no sense. You seem to understand that he was being snarky, so why do you not understand that that snark and desire to see “others” brought down to a lower level just because some were already there doesn’t help anyone? Actually, that division does help people, those people that are putting people there in the first place. Let’s be clear: for context I’ve been out of the programming game for more than 10 years at this point. I have my own business that I’m set to sell soon and then retire to something more entrepreneurial. But I still don’t desire to see my younger employees suffer any more than the tradesmen I used to work with.
  - tptacek 11d ago
    You haven't established anybody being treated poorly, only that they're being treated like professionals and not artisans.
    - ofjcihen 11d ago
      Haha, it seems childish but if you’d like to go that route I’ll just point you to the original posters reply: >It's exposing the hypocrisy of privileged groups suddenly being treated like regular people, when they did NOTHING for decades to help others or even to protect themselves ("f* you, got mine", rockstar programmer, 10x programmer, talents everywhere, etc mentality). No unions, no collective bargaining, sheer individual greed. So, I guess since you’re taking that position, Thomas: are you just pro pain for an increasing number of workers or can we agree that adding more people to the pool of mistreated labor isn’t beneficial for anyone? Personally I’m going to continue advocating for better rights for both.
      - tptacek 11d ago
        What "pain" are you talking about? You keep trying to smuggle this framing in. I don't accept the premise.
        ofjcihen 11d ago
        No smuggling needed. The original poster and I are on the same page and I suspect you’re just playing games to avoid hard questions. I’m assuming from that that fly.io may not have a great work culture.
        tptacek 11d ago
        What a weirdly hostile and offensive response. I'm always struck by people who think they can namedrop my employers to shut down an argument, like we're just going to believe and profess whatever keeps people on message boards from being mean about the company. But, no, I feel like throughout this thread I've been pretty consistently putting a question to you (what exactly do you mean by "pain" or mistreatment, given the original comment described other professionals having norms developers seem now to be recoiling from). We can be done, though, obviously.
        ofjcihen 11d ago
        Nah it’s relevant, because if you hold these views to the point that you’re willing to avoid answering the question then obviously your world view is warped in what even you would consider a negative direction and therefor it’s important that others get a chance to be steered away from a potentially negative experience. And to be fair, I don’t know what you expect when you advertise your place of work and then insensitively play games with serious subject matter on public message boards. I think the kids call that a self own. But I agree, you don’t seem willing to put in writing what you’ve conveyed so this isn’t a growth experience for anyone.
        ghjkghjkghj 11d ago
        reading through this it is obvious what the "pain" is and it does come across as you just avoiding the question. Just sayin

tptacek 11d ago

What do you mean, "advocating for better treatment"? They're not describing an abuse of tradespeople and professionals. They're adults doing a job.

ofjcihen 11d ago
So, from your comment and your reply, are you just happy that more people are being treated poorly? That makes no sense. You seem to understand that he was being snarky, so why do you not understand that that snark and desire to see “others” brought down to a lower level just because some were already there doesn’t help anyone? Actually, that division does help people, those people that are putting people there in the first place. Let’s be clear: for context I’ve been out of the programming game for more than 10 years at this point. I have my own business that I’m set to sell soon and then retire to something more entrepreneurial. But I still don’t desire to see my younger employees suffer any more than the tradesmen I used to work with.
- tptacek 11d ago
  You haven't established anybody being treated poorly, only that they're being treated like professionals and not artisans.
  - ofjcihen 11d ago
    Haha, it seems childish but if you’d like to go that route I’ll just point you to the original posters reply: >It's exposing the hypocrisy of privileged groups suddenly being treated like regular people, when they did NOTHING for decades to help others or even to protect themselves ("f* you, got mine", rockstar programmer, 10x programmer, talents everywhere, etc mentality). No unions, no collective bargaining, sheer individual greed. So, I guess since you’re taking that position, Thomas: are you just pro pain for an increasing number of workers or can we agree that adding more people to the pool of mistreated labor isn’t beneficial for anyone? Personally I’m going to continue advocating for better rights for both.
    - tptacek 11d ago
      What "pain" are you talking about? You keep trying to smuggle this framing in. I don't accept the premise.
      - ofjcihen 11d ago
        No smuggling needed. The original poster and I are on the same page and I suspect you’re just playing games to avoid hard questions. I’m assuming from that that fly.io may not have a great work culture.
        tptacek 11d ago
        What a weirdly hostile and offensive response. I'm always struck by people who think they can namedrop my employers to shut down an argument, like we're just going to believe and profess whatever keeps people on message boards from being mean about the company. But, no, I feel like throughout this thread I've been pretty consistently putting a question to you (what exactly do you mean by "pain" or mistreatment, given the original comment described other professionals having norms developers seem now to be recoiling from). We can be done, though, obviously.
        ofjcihen 11d ago
        Nah it’s relevant, because if you hold these views to the point that you’re willing to avoid answering the question then obviously your world view is warped in what even you would consider a negative direction and therefor it’s important that others get a chance to be steered away from a potentially negative experience. And to be fair, I don’t know what you expect when you advertise your place of work and then insensitively play games with serious subject matter on public message boards. I think the kids call that a self own. But I agree, you don’t seem willing to put in writing what you’ve conveyed so this isn’t a growth experience for anyone.
        ghjkghjkghj 11d ago
        reading through this it is obvious what the "pain" is and it does come across as you just avoiding the question. Just sayin