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I don’t understand how this comment is productive for any of the groups involved. Can you explain it to me?

oblio 11d ago
It doesn't try to be productive. It's exposing the hypocrisy of privileged groups suddenly being treated like regular people, when they did NOTHING for decades to help others or even to protect themselves ("f** you, got mine", rockstar programmer, 10x programmer, talents everywhere, etc mentality). No unions, no collective bargaining, sheer individual greed.
- ofjcihen 11d ago
  Do you think that all programmers have always existed in the US? On that note, do you think that all programmers in the US are these Silicon Valley stereotypes? Plenty of programmers in the US make normal wages for professionals with degrees doing things not at the technology companies famous for their disregard of the rest of humanity. As someone who has done trades and also “machine shop programming” and jail breaking rural equipment for friends to use I’m wondering why comments like this are focusing on dividing us instead of bringing us together.
  - oblio 11d ago
    It's a universal programmer trait. Let's call them "culturally regular programmers": they are less social than the average person. They lean more libertarian and more selfish.
    - ofjcihen 11d ago
      According to who and what? I think the entire open source community would like to have to have a word with you.
      - oblio 11d ago
        The Open Source community is programmers sharing with other programmers, and it's largely fueled by corporate interests these days. The Free Software movement has largely failed by now, as shown by GPL 3/AGPL adoption. And again, all of this was based on the fact that programmers were a "special breed" of people coddled by corporations. Now that the corporate mask is off and programmers are no longer (as) special, the whining is horrendous. And the libertarianism still won't go away. > According to who and what? To me, I've been around the block for several decades. Again, not everyone, but the culturally regular programmer.
tptacek 11d ago
It's a snarky way of suggesting that programmers are complaining about being treated the way professionals and tradespeople always have.
- ofjcihen 11d ago
  Yeah I get that. But having been both it doesn’t advocate for better treatment for any of them. Also as far as I’m aware the pay for programmers in the US has always been an isolated thing with the rest of the world ranging from normal to “literal sweatshop”.
  - tptacek 11d ago
    What do you mean, "advocating for better treatment"? They're not describing an abuse of tradespeople and professionals. They're adults doing a job.
    - ofjcihen 11d ago
      So, from your comment and your reply, are you just happy that more people are being treated poorly? That makes no sense. You seem to understand that he was being snarky, so why do you not understand that that snark and desire to see “others” brought down to a lower level just because some were already there doesn’t help anyone? Actually, that division does help people, those people that are putting people there in the first place. Let’s be clear: for context I’ve been out of the programming game for more than 10 years at this point. I have my own business that I’m set to sell soon and then retire to something more entrepreneurial. But I still don’t desire to see my younger employees suffer any more than the tradesmen I used to work with.
      - tptacek 11d ago
        You haven't established anybody being treated poorly, only that they're being treated like professionals and not artisans.
        11d ago

oblio 11d ago

It doesn't try to be productive. It's exposing the hypocrisy of privileged groups suddenly being treated like regular people, when they did NOTHING for decades to help others or even to protect themselves ("f** you, got mine", rockstar programmer, 10x programmer, talents everywhere, etc mentality). No unions, no collective bargaining, sheer individual greed.

ofjcihen 11d ago
Do you think that all programmers have always existed in the US? On that note, do you think that all programmers in the US are these Silicon Valley stereotypes? Plenty of programmers in the US make normal wages for professionals with degrees doing things not at the technology companies famous for their disregard of the rest of humanity. As someone who has done trades and also “machine shop programming” and jail breaking rural equipment for friends to use I’m wondering why comments like this are focusing on dividing us instead of bringing us together.
- oblio 11d ago
  It's a universal programmer trait. Let's call them "culturally regular programmers": they are less social than the average person. They lean more libertarian and more selfish.
  - ofjcihen 11d ago
    According to who and what? I think the entire open source community would like to have to have a word with you.
    - oblio 11d ago
      The Open Source community is programmers sharing with other programmers, and it's largely fueled by corporate interests these days. The Free Software movement has largely failed by now, as shown by GPL 3/AGPL adoption. And again, all of this was based on the fact that programmers were a "special breed" of people coddled by corporations. Now that the corporate mask is off and programmers are no longer (as) special, the whining is horrendous. And the libertarianism still won't go away. > According to who and what? To me, I've been around the block for several decades. Again, not everyone, but the culturally regular programmer.

tptacek 11d ago

It's a snarky way of suggesting that programmers are complaining about being treated the way professionals and tradespeople always have.

ofjcihen 11d ago
Yeah I get that. But having been both it doesn’t advocate for better treatment for any of them. Also as far as I’m aware the pay for programmers in the US has always been an isolated thing with the rest of the world ranging from normal to “literal sweatshop”.
- tptacek 11d ago
  What do you mean, "advocating for better treatment"? They're not describing an abuse of tradespeople and professionals. They're adults doing a job.
  - ofjcihen 11d ago
    So, from your comment and your reply, are you just happy that more people are being treated poorly? That makes no sense. You seem to understand that he was being snarky, so why do you not understand that that snark and desire to see “others” brought down to a lower level just because some were already there doesn’t help anyone? Actually, that division does help people, those people that are putting people there in the first place. Let’s be clear: for context I’ve been out of the programming game for more than 10 years at this point. I have my own business that I’m set to sell soon and then retire to something more entrepreneurial. But I still don’t desire to see my younger employees suffer any more than the tradesmen I used to work with.
    - tptacek 11d ago
      You haven't established anybody being treated poorly, only that they're being treated like professionals and not artisans.
      - 11d ago