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This is great, I just saw your post on X. I'm also building a bike computer! eInk is the right display tech. I think this will do really well. It might need a

by mholt 13d ago

This is great, I just saw your post on X. I'm also building a bike computer! eInk is the right display tech. I think this will do really well. It might need a UV filter. That said, I don't love needing a separate device (hence, I don't own any bike computer). This is just my preference, but I really prefer to just plop my phone on my handlebars. So I'm building a bike computer app for iPhone: https://x.com/mholt6/status/2090529441944687087 https://x.com/mholt6/status/2090529441944687087 (trying to get Apple to approve my developer account / business info, but they're hung up on my website of all things). Phones are definitely not ideal in terms of display and energy use, but, I have found that with proper optimizations, energy use is a non-issue. To offset display problems, the app has several ride modes: a rich map display with 3D road or satellite view; a high-contrast wireframe map that looks great at both high and low refresh rates because it has no analog-style gauges; an instrument panel dashboard view; and a voice-only mode that has big touch zones for on-demand voice updates, using a state of the art mobile voice synthesis model. For connected radars, the app also renders radar data and has a screen like Tesla/Rivian's autonomy displays. The app automatically manages thermals by switching modes to preserve battery life. In my testing so far, by managing energy, making really good voice feedback, and using high-contrast screens (every mode other than the "rich" map), even a dimmed iPhone display is quite a usable bike computer in high-altitude sunlight. But man, that eInk looks so clean and nice. Definitely the superior display! Nice work and I hope to learn some things from it! EDIT: Woah, you got ANT+ support using BLE radio? I am not surprised that that is possible, but dang, that must have been a clever LLM.

robot_jesus 13d ago
To each their own and the e-ink computer is a neat project. But I'm personally with you on not wanting a separate device. I have my iPhone and a quad lock case I swap on for rides. Not sure I'm 100% on board with the visual style of your interface (some of the metrics look like they'd be nearly impossible to read while riding 30mph down a gravel road) but I'd love to check it out once it's released. Do you have a way to sign up for release email or updates for your project? Good luck!
- matsemann 12d ago
  For many, a separate device is a feature. Not using the phone battery and not poosibly damage my phone (fall) is good.
  - deleted 12d ago
    [deleted]
- mholt 13d ago
  Thanks; not yet unfortunately, I have been too busy to set up a mailing list, but that's a good idea. The video preview I linked to only shows the rich maps and instrument modes. There's also a wireframe map view that is higher-contrast and much more practical for your gravel rides: https://i.imgur.com/lZF20Xz.png https://i.imgur.com/lZF20Xz.png -- and I am still tuning of course, we can make the map smaller and the characters larger, etc. Maybe follow @mholt6 on X for updates when I have them... whenever Apple will let me in.
  - robot_jesus 12d ago
    Alas, no X account but I'll set a remind to check in again in a month or two. Cheers.
mmooss 13d ago
> eInk is the right display tech. It's interesting and I clicked on the OP, but why? The variable ambient light conditions, refresh rate, etc would seem to favor standard LCD/etc. Battery capacity isn't much of an issue for a small screen, and weight carried by the bicycle.
- mholt 13d ago
  eInk is like a piece of paper, which gets MORE visible in the sun, but standard touchscreen LCDs/OLEDs get harder to see. I am not sure about the physics/reasons for this. Phones also aggressively dim screens to conserve energy and lower temperatures. Phones absorb a lot of sunlight, so a white eInk display is brilliant in that regard. Refresh rate is a solved problem for eInk as well, but it comes with energy tradeoffs and... might still be proprietary. But 60-120 fps eInk exists AFAIK.
  - WillAdams 12d ago
    Trying to outbright the sun on a battery-powered device is an approach I've always found questionable. E-ink, instead just lets the sun reflect off of it, does want some sort of light in the dark, but, perfectly visible in full-bright/direct sunlight.
  - ianburrell 12d ago
    Transflective LCDs, which most bike computers use, are also reflective but have better contrast than eink making them more visible in sunlight. They are different than phones.
    - carlosjobim 12d ago
      They don't have better contrasts. They have blacker blacks, but eInk has much whiter whites.
      - pandaman 12d ago
        They obviously do. E-ink display in this topic, for example, is 12:1[1]. The best (contrast wise) e-ink displays available commercially are around 20:1. The trashiest LCD, on the other hand, will be around 500:1. 1. https://www.panelook.com/ED047TC1_E_Ink_4.7_EPD_parameter_25595.html https://www.panelook.com/ED047TC1_E_Ink_4.7_EPD_parameter_25...
opello 12d ago
eInk does seem like an awesome choice for this to me too. I've gone without a bike computer for the same reasons as not wanting a second device. I used my phone for years in a water proof front frame bag with a transparent cover. Usually for not more than 3 hours at a time. Only on my Pixel 7a did I end up with burn in from the Wahoo Android app's status screen, where "n/a" for not having a power meter ultimately burnt in after about 2 years, at least that's when I noticed it. Now I just go without being able to glance down and see ride stats or directions. More planning or stopping if I reroute is required, but I didn't want to damage the phone... :( Presumably an app could cycle displayed screens, if that's what you meant by switching modes, to avoid burn in? But I really thought AMOLED was past that when I never saw it on previous phones.
stingrae 12d ago
note using a phone mounted to a bike or motorcycle can cause damage over time to the camera assembly especially the motors used for OIS. depending on how much you ride or the quality of the roads you ride, it could be an issue. your project does look amazing. sorry that the appstore team is holding things up. RE: ANT+, a hackrf one and fable was key to the hack.
- raudette 12d ago
  "Exposure to vibrations, like those generated by high-powered motorcycle engines, might impact iPhone cameras" https://support.apple.com/en-ca/102175 https://support.apple.com/en-ca/102175 I attribute my iPhone 7's camera failing with mounting it on my bike.
  - lostlogin 11d ago
    > camera failing with mounting it on my bike. I’ve wondered about this. Does it shake a lot less when it’s in a pocket for the same ride? Presumably yes, as every cyclist ever does that.
alabut 12d ago
I use my phone as a bike computer too but it only works on short rides around town. Anything longer gets cooked by the sun until the screen dims and battery stops charging. That’s why the head units in my bikepacking groups have screens that double as solar displays. The Coros Dura is probably the most popular one for all day or multi-day trips.
consp 12d ago
> eInk is the right display tech. I used a transflective LCD. Works fine. You don't need UV protection nor have temperature issues. (Yes also build my own two years ago but I don't do pr so no slick website).
woodgala 12d ago
My phone is the root of trust of my life. I would never put on in my handlebars where it can be easily snatched while unlocked, or broken.
- rjrjrjrj 11d ago
  Do you hold it in your hand in public? Far more risk of it being easily snatched while unlocked.
  - woodgala 10d ago
    Nope. You gotta be careful. I had my Pixel snatched out of my hand in Cambodia. I no longer wave it around in public.
KennyBlanken 11d ago
"this is just my preference, but I really prefer to just plop my phone on my handlebars" It's not a preference. There are a slew of issues around physical damage. Running out of power is far more of a problem than you make it out to be. There are major visibility issues (thankfully Garmin is working on this by continuing their idiotic OLED push /s) and water ingress issues. 1M submersion rating is NOT "driving rain while riding at 15-20mph." The only people I see with phones on their handlebars are newbies.

by mholt 13d ago

robot_jesus 13d ago

To each their own and the e-ink computer is a neat project. But I'm personally with you on not wanting a separate device. I have my iPhone and a quad lock case I swap on for rides. Not sure I'm 100% on board with the visual style of your interface (some of the metrics look like they'd be nearly impossible to read while riding 30mph down a gravel road) but I'd love to check it out once it's released. Do you have a way to sign up for release email or updates for your project? Good luck!

matsemann 12d ago
For many, a separate device is a feature. Not using the phone battery and not poosibly damage my phone (fall) is good.
- deleted 12d ago
  [deleted]
mholt 13d ago
Thanks; not yet unfortunately, I have been too busy to set up a mailing list, but that's a good idea. The video preview I linked to only shows the rich maps and instrument modes. There's also a wireframe map view that is higher-contrast and much more practical for your gravel rides: https://i.imgur.com/lZF20Xz.png https://i.imgur.com/lZF20Xz.png -- and I am still tuning of course, we can make the map smaller and the characters larger, etc. Maybe follow @mholt6 on X for updates when I have them... whenever Apple will let me in.
- robot_jesus 12d ago
  Alas, no X account but I'll set a remind to check in again in a month or two. Cheers.

mmooss 13d ago

> eInk is the right display tech. It's interesting and I clicked on the OP, but why? The variable ambient light conditions, refresh rate, etc would seem to favor standard LCD/etc. Battery capacity isn't much of an issue for a small screen, and weight carried by the bicycle.

mholt 13d ago
eInk is like a piece of paper, which gets MORE visible in the sun, but standard touchscreen LCDs/OLEDs get harder to see. I am not sure about the physics/reasons for this. Phones also aggressively dim screens to conserve energy and lower temperatures. Phones absorb a lot of sunlight, so a white eInk display is brilliant in that regard. Refresh rate is a solved problem for eInk as well, but it comes with energy tradeoffs and... might still be proprietary. But 60-120 fps eInk exists AFAIK.
- WillAdams 12d ago
  Trying to outbright the sun on a battery-powered device is an approach I've always found questionable. E-ink, instead just lets the sun reflect off of it, does want some sort of light in the dark, but, perfectly visible in full-bright/direct sunlight.
- ianburrell 12d ago
  Transflective LCDs, which most bike computers use, are also reflective but have better contrast than eink making them more visible in sunlight. They are different than phones.
  - carlosjobim 12d ago
    They don't have better contrasts. They have blacker blacks, but eInk has much whiter whites.
    - pandaman 12d ago
      They obviously do. E-ink display in this topic, for example, is 12:1[1]. The best (contrast wise) e-ink displays available commercially are around 20:1. The trashiest LCD, on the other hand, will be around 500:1. 1. https://www.panelook.com/ED047TC1_E_Ink_4.7_EPD_parameter_25595.html https://www.panelook.com/ED047TC1_E_Ink_4.7_EPD_parameter_25...

opello 12d ago

eInk does seem like an awesome choice for this to me too. I've gone without a bike computer for the same reasons as not wanting a second device. I used my phone for years in a water proof front frame bag with a transparent cover. Usually for not more than 3 hours at a time. Only on my Pixel 7a did I end up with burn in from the Wahoo Android app's status screen, where "n/a" for not having a power meter ultimately burnt in after about 2 years, at least that's when I noticed it. Now I just go without being able to glance down and see ride stats or directions. More planning or stopping if I reroute is required, but I didn't want to damage the phone... :( Presumably an app could cycle displayed screens, if that's what you meant by switching modes, to avoid burn in? But I really thought AMOLED was past that when I never saw it on previous phones.

stingrae 12d ago

note using a phone mounted to a bike or motorcycle can cause damage over time to the camera assembly especially the motors used for OIS. depending on how much you ride or the quality of the roads you ride, it could be an issue. your project does look amazing. sorry that the appstore team is holding things up. RE: ANT+, a hackrf one and fable was key to the hack.

raudette 12d ago
"Exposure to vibrations, like those generated by high-powered motorcycle engines, might impact iPhone cameras" https://support.apple.com/en-ca/102175 https://support.apple.com/en-ca/102175 I attribute my iPhone 7's camera failing with mounting it on my bike.
- lostlogin 11d ago
  > camera failing with mounting it on my bike. I’ve wondered about this. Does it shake a lot less when it’s in a pocket for the same ride? Presumably yes, as every cyclist ever does that.

alabut 12d ago

I use my phone as a bike computer too but it only works on short rides around town. Anything longer gets cooked by the sun until the screen dims and battery stops charging. That’s why the head units in my bikepacking groups have screens that double as solar displays. The Coros Dura is probably the most popular one for all day or multi-day trips.

consp 12d ago

> eInk is the right display tech. I used a transflective LCD. Works fine. You don't need UV protection nor have temperature issues. (Yes also build my own two years ago but I don't do pr so no slick website).

woodgala 12d ago

My phone is the root of trust of my life. I would never put on in my handlebars where it can be easily snatched while unlocked, or broken.

rjrjrjrj 11d ago
Do you hold it in your hand in public? Far more risk of it being easily snatched while unlocked.
- woodgala 10d ago
  Nope. You gotta be careful. I had my Pixel snatched out of my hand in Cambodia. I no longer wave it around in public.

KennyBlanken 11d ago

"this is just my preference, but I really prefer to just plop my phone on my handlebars" It's not a preference. There are a slew of issues around physical damage. Running out of power is far more of a problem than you make it out to be. There are major visibility issues (thankfully Garmin is working on this by continuing their idiotic OLED push /s) and water ingress issues. 1M submersion rating is NOT "driving rain while riding at 15-20mph." The only people I see with phones on their handlebars are newbies.