5 ms·

I believe the GrapheneOS team demands, in particular, a security feature called Memory Tagging Extensions (MTE). This feature has a phone's processor attach a "

I believe the GrapheneOS team demands, in particular, a security feature called Memory Tagging Extensions (MTE). This feature has a phone's processor attach a "tag" to each memory location saying what's stored there and requires accesses to that memory to bear a matching tag. Buffer overflow type attacks are effectively prevented because a read into the adjoining region having a different tag gets rejected. This feature is usually NOT present in desktop computers, and has only really been implemented by the Google Pixel hardware so far. It's unclear why it's viewed as being so critically necessary for Graphene: MTE is certainly useful but I personally wouldn't say its absence indicates an "insecure" device, and it imposes both a clear performance (and battery life!) penalty and a significant hardware burden on the SoC manufacturer. It's a pretty significant trade-off. Anyway, that's the biggest single reason why GrapheneOS devs say "this hardware is not adequately secure": 99% of phone chips are excluded because they do not support MTE.

rustcleaner 12d ago
While yes I am on GrapheneOS' side on these issues, I'm surprised nobody clones the GrapheneOS repo and simply disables the minimal handful of features which block it from working on devices. Maybe calling the clone CarbonOS? If MTE is required to boot GrapheneOS and Fairphones don't have MTE, then Fairphone clones GrapheneOS and disables MTE for its images. Graphene has so many features beyond just hardware security that other Androids lack, that it would be worthwhile to do this and it would still be higher security than the others (even if it's below GrapheneOS' own full security). Sensor & network permissions, storage & contact scopes, autoreboot, scrambled pin, radio auto-off, MAC address randomization, and more, I'm sure don't require MTE or Titan etc. Just follow GrapheneOS as upstream, making sure that the minimal set of changes needed to get it working on other/older devices transfers with the new updates.
- pferde 12d ago
  Lack of MTE is not the only huge reason why the GrapheneOS team refuses most devices. Most vendors' lack of timely bugfixes for device-specific drivers and firmware, and no commitment to keep providing bugfixes for a number of years is another major factor.
  - rustcleaner 12d ago
    Still, a 'degraded' GrapheneOS as my proposed CarbonOS, beats /e/, Lineage, Calyx, and stock. Not doing CarbonOS is throwing the baby (non-hardware hardening and features) out with the bathwater (the lack of hardware hardening). I for one do not wholly rely on Titan and use a long alphanumeric password on my primary profile to ensure BFU disk encryption isn't violated, while living in secondary daily-driver profiles which are PIN protected for ease of use. If I suspect phone seizure becomes a non-infinitesimal possibility, I can just reboot! Additionally, I would love to see an option in GOS that allows me to change the action bound to the panic sequence (5+ rapid presses of power): I would never call police using that sequence, I would 100x rather that sequence cause a shutdown instead. That way if I am asked to hand over my phone I can just panic sequence it as I am removing it from my pocket. As it stands now I would have to pause to interact with the screen to shut it off, significantly increasing the likelihood of the adversary snatching it before I could get it into BFU.
    - grapheneos 12d ago
      The majority of our added exploit protections are based on hardware security features and that will only be increasing over time. MTE, PAC, BTI, hardware-based blocking of USB connections/data and far more are hardware features used to implement protections in software. MTE is going to be a growing part of how we build memory corruption defenses in the kernel and userspace. Once 6th/7th gen Pixels are end-of-life and we finally flip the switch on using MTE in all user installed apps by default, we can focus even more on expanding MTE-based protections. The vast majority of users do not use a strong passphrase. The recommended high security setup is a strong passphrase and 2-factor fingerprint+PIN secondary unlock for convenience. Using a weaker PIN for secondary users for convenience is not our recommended approach.
- gib444 12d ago
  [flagged]
  - palata 12d ago
    I have seen inflammatory comments coming from all communities, I wouldn't say it's only GrapheneOS. Though I haven't seen any of those in a while... as if they all got a lot more professional in their communications suddenly? One can hope. Your comment, however, seems to wish the inflammatory debates came back, and I don't think it is constructive.
- palata 12d ago
  I think it would just be a lot of work. And if you went down that road, you would be against other teams with bigger marketing and a bigger community. As in: people who do care enough to understand the technical arguments tend to go for GrapheneOS when they can. But if you build a "degraded GrapheneOS", you are not targetting those. For someone who doesn't care about what GrapheneOS brings, why would they use your system versus /e/OS? DivestOS was a thing at some point, which was technically very interesting. But there wasn't much of a differentiator since the people who already cared about what DivestOS was doing were probably already looking at getting GrapheneOS.
- grapheneos 12d ago
  Fairphones are missing many of the required features and don't provide reasonable updates. An incomplete port of GrapheneOS won't provide decent security for users. It won't have decent encryption for the vast majority of users not using a strong passphrase and it won't defend well against exploits. It will end up with an end-of-life kernel and drivers/firmware lagging far behind on updates. MTE is required for the majority of the additional protection provided by GrapheneOS against memory corruption exploits. Nearly all remote exploits and most local exploits involve memory corruption. MTE is only going to become more important as we implement deeper integration for it.
cherryteastain 12d ago
MTE is not the only blocker here. Pixel 7 series do not have it and are currently supported by GrapheneOS. There are other concerns regarding things like a proper secure element implementation and timely firmware/binary blob updates.
- rustcleaner 12d ago
  Right, but still my CarbonOS idea ('degraded' GrapheneOS) is better than /e/, Lineage, Calyx, and stock. By 'degraded' I mean the minimal changes to current GrapheneOS needed to get it working on a given GrapheneOS-unsupported device.
  - grapheneos 12d ago
    An incomplete port of GrapheneOS to Fairphones will be missing many of the core security features and won't have reasonable security updates. Fairphones are nowhere close to reasonably secure devices. Most people expect to have decent encryption without a strong passphrase, at least 5 years of security updates and a lot more. Fairphone says they provide updates far longer than they do for many components, and those come with substantial delays. Fairphone 5 and earlier have end-of-life kernels without security support. That's a very bad situation and is widely ignored. The more recent devices are headed to the same situation for the Linux kernel and other components.
    - fsflover 11d ago
      > Most people expect to have decent encryption without a strong passphrase Citation needed.
- grapheneos 12d ago
  GrapheneOS requires MTE for any newly added devices. Pixel 6 and Pixel 7 series devices do not meet the current requirements. Pixel 8 and later are the devices meeting the full requirements. Devices are supported until end-of-life rather than being dropped when they no longer meet the requirements. Pixel 6 is nearly end-of-life and Pixel 7 will be end-of-life in a bit over a year. Both have 5 years of updates from launch as opposed to 7 years for the Pixel 8 and later. We want to require 7 years of updates for new devices rather than 5 but have left it at 5 to help budget devices meet our requirements.
grapheneos 12d ago
That's highly inaccurate information. MTE is included on a large number of smartphones beyond Pixels. It's heavily integrated into iOS on the iPhone 17 as their Memory Integration Enforcement feature. MTE enables massive security improvements against exploits and Pixels have had it since the Pixel 8 in October 2023. Traditional desktop computers have atrocious privacy and security throughout hardware, firmware and software. That isn't a relevant comparison for GrapheneOS. Recent Mac hardware does support MTE and so will non-Mac devices using Snapdragon chips. Qualcomm has added MTE support for their latest flagship mobile SoC platform and will bring it elsewhere. MediaTek and Exynos have also added MTE support. MTE does not have the substantial performance or battery life impact you're portraying it as having. It's also far more useful than you're portraying it as being. Apple would not have extensively integrated MTE if they had to give up significant performance or battery life. iPhones have a lot of focus on security but aren't willing to make significant sacrifices in those areas for it, at least for the default settings. Their Memory Integrity Enforcement entirely based on MTE is always enabled in the kernel and the large portion of userspace where they deployed it. It's not only used for Lockdown Mode.

rustcleaner 12d ago

While yes I am on GrapheneOS' side on these issues, I'm surprised nobody clones the GrapheneOS repo and simply disables the minimal handful of features which block it from working on devices. Maybe calling the clone CarbonOS? If MTE is required to boot GrapheneOS and Fairphones don't have MTE, then Fairphone clones GrapheneOS and disables MTE for its images. Graphene has so many features beyond just hardware security that other Androids lack, that it would be worthwhile to do this and it would still be higher security than the others (even if it's below GrapheneOS' own full security). Sensor & network permissions, storage & contact scopes, autoreboot, scrambled pin, radio auto-off, MAC address randomization, and more, I'm sure don't require MTE or Titan etc. Just follow GrapheneOS as upstream, making sure that the minimal set of changes needed to get it working on other/older devices transfers with the new updates.

pferde 12d ago
Lack of MTE is not the only huge reason why the GrapheneOS team refuses most devices. Most vendors' lack of timely bugfixes for device-specific drivers and firmware, and no commitment to keep providing bugfixes for a number of years is another major factor.
- rustcleaner 12d ago
  Still, a 'degraded' GrapheneOS as my proposed CarbonOS, beats /e/, Lineage, Calyx, and stock. Not doing CarbonOS is throwing the baby (non-hardware hardening and features) out with the bathwater (the lack of hardware hardening). I for one do not wholly rely on Titan and use a long alphanumeric password on my primary profile to ensure BFU disk encryption isn't violated, while living in secondary daily-driver profiles which are PIN protected for ease of use. If I suspect phone seizure becomes a non-infinitesimal possibility, I can just reboot! Additionally, I would love to see an option in GOS that allows me to change the action bound to the panic sequence (5+ rapid presses of power): I would never call police using that sequence, I would 100x rather that sequence cause a shutdown instead. That way if I am asked to hand over my phone I can just panic sequence it as I am removing it from my pocket. As it stands now I would have to pause to interact with the screen to shut it off, significantly increasing the likelihood of the adversary snatching it before I could get it into BFU.
  - grapheneos 12d ago
    The majority of our added exploit protections are based on hardware security features and that will only be increasing over time. MTE, PAC, BTI, hardware-based blocking of USB connections/data and far more are hardware features used to implement protections in software. MTE is going to be a growing part of how we build memory corruption defenses in the kernel and userspace. Once 6th/7th gen Pixels are end-of-life and we finally flip the switch on using MTE in all user installed apps by default, we can focus even more on expanding MTE-based protections. The vast majority of users do not use a strong passphrase. The recommended high security setup is a strong passphrase and 2-factor fingerprint+PIN secondary unlock for convenience. Using a weaker PIN for secondary users for convenience is not our recommended approach.
gib444 12d ago
[flagged]
- palata 12d ago
  I have seen inflammatory comments coming from all communities, I wouldn't say it's only GrapheneOS. Though I haven't seen any of those in a while... as if they all got a lot more professional in their communications suddenly? One can hope. Your comment, however, seems to wish the inflammatory debates came back, and I don't think it is constructive.
palata 12d ago
I think it would just be a lot of work. And if you went down that road, you would be against other teams with bigger marketing and a bigger community. As in: people who do care enough to understand the technical arguments tend to go for GrapheneOS when they can. But if you build a "degraded GrapheneOS", you are not targetting those. For someone who doesn't care about what GrapheneOS brings, why would they use your system versus /e/OS? DivestOS was a thing at some point, which was technically very interesting. But there wasn't much of a differentiator since the people who already cared about what DivestOS was doing were probably already looking at getting GrapheneOS.
grapheneos 12d ago
Fairphones are missing many of the required features and don't provide reasonable updates. An incomplete port of GrapheneOS won't provide decent security for users. It won't have decent encryption for the vast majority of users not using a strong passphrase and it won't defend well against exploits. It will end up with an end-of-life kernel and drivers/firmware lagging far behind on updates. MTE is required for the majority of the additional protection provided by GrapheneOS against memory corruption exploits. Nearly all remote exploits and most local exploits involve memory corruption. MTE is only going to become more important as we implement deeper integration for it.

cherryteastain 12d ago

MTE is not the only blocker here. Pixel 7 series do not have it and are currently supported by GrapheneOS. There are other concerns regarding things like a proper secure element implementation and timely firmware/binary blob updates.

rustcleaner 12d ago
Right, but still my CarbonOS idea ('degraded' GrapheneOS) is better than /e/, Lineage, Calyx, and stock. By 'degraded' I mean the minimal changes to current GrapheneOS needed to get it working on a given GrapheneOS-unsupported device.
- grapheneos 12d ago
  An incomplete port of GrapheneOS to Fairphones will be missing many of the core security features and won't have reasonable security updates. Fairphones are nowhere close to reasonably secure devices. Most people expect to have decent encryption without a strong passphrase, at least 5 years of security updates and a lot more. Fairphone says they provide updates far longer than they do for many components, and those come with substantial delays. Fairphone 5 and earlier have end-of-life kernels without security support. That's a very bad situation and is widely ignored. The more recent devices are headed to the same situation for the Linux kernel and other components.
  - fsflover 11d ago
    > Most people expect to have decent encryption without a strong passphrase Citation needed.
grapheneos 12d ago
GrapheneOS requires MTE for any newly added devices. Pixel 6 and Pixel 7 series devices do not meet the current requirements. Pixel 8 and later are the devices meeting the full requirements. Devices are supported until end-of-life rather than being dropped when they no longer meet the requirements. Pixel 6 is nearly end-of-life and Pixel 7 will be end-of-life in a bit over a year. Both have 5 years of updates from launch as opposed to 7 years for the Pixel 8 and later. We want to require 7 years of updates for new devices rather than 5 but have left it at 5 to help budget devices meet our requirements.

grapheneos 12d ago

That's highly inaccurate information. MTE is included on a large number of smartphones beyond Pixels. It's heavily integrated into iOS on the iPhone 17 as their Memory Integration Enforcement feature. MTE enables massive security improvements against exploits and Pixels have had it since the Pixel 8 in October 2023. Traditional desktop computers have atrocious privacy and security throughout hardware, firmware and software. That isn't a relevant comparison for GrapheneOS. Recent Mac hardware does support MTE and so will non-Mac devices using Snapdragon chips. Qualcomm has added MTE support for their latest flagship mobile SoC platform and will bring it elsewhere. MediaTek and Exynos have also added MTE support. MTE does not have the substantial performance or battery life impact you're portraying it as having. It's also far more useful than you're portraying it as being. Apple would not have extensively integrated MTE if they had to give up significant performance or battery life. iPhones have a lot of focus on security but aren't willing to make significant sacrifices in those areas for it, at least for the default settings. Their Memory Integrity Enforcement entirely based on MTE is always enabled in the kernel and the large portion of userspace where they deployed it. It's not only used for Lockdown Mode.