6 ms·
You can think of joseki as “local opening”. Like, in a vacuum, this is known by study / AI to be an even result for black and white. It’s just like a chess open
by EchoAce 13d ago
You can think of joseki as “local opening”. Like, in a vacuum, this is known by study / AI to be an even result for black and white. It’s just like a chess opening, there’s no calculation up to a certain point. And it doesn’t exist in the midgame, it’s not similar to forced sequences which exist in both games; it’s much more like choosing French closed vs open or gambit/gambit declined. The one thing is (and this is huge), since Go board is very big, existing stone formations on other parts of the board influence the value of joseki and make certain ones more advantageous for black or white. To my knowledge this doesn’t really exist in chess, because the opening is already the entire board.
However, when Shin executed the 50 move flying knife, the board was pretty much empty. So there is really no need for calculation, both Shin and the AI know it’s locally optimal. But getting to play a very long locally optimal sequence is good for the weaker player, so they have less “real” moves to lose EV on. Notably Shin probably can’t open with the flying knife in one corner past a certain point in the game, even if that corner were completely empty - the rest of the board positions would change the end values of the variants.
If the AI could know this, they might play a variant that ends 30 moves sooner but is 0.01 pts worse. Then they would have more time to mess Shin up through organic new moves (which the AI will be better at of course).
(disclaimer: only ranked 1 dan)
- matsemann 13d agoSounds like the counter is a strategy Magnus Carlsen has been known for in chess: get out of theory, probably on a bit weaker foot than the other player, to then crush them on raw power.
- kuboble 13d agoYes, exactly. The feeling among the go players I know is that the match had been kind of a setup for the human to win. It's an equivalent of playing in chess with a bishop handicap and a computer playing deterministic chess so that a human can prepare a forced sequence into a winning endgame. Shin is an absolutely amazing player and not anyone could have achieved that, but nobody really feels like he won vs a computer team that tried its best.
- throw310822 13d agoI don't know absolutely anything about Go but your description of how josekis work- how their optimality makes their evolution deterministic and how they develop better on empty boards or break up against obstacles, makes me think about Conway's game of life. Cool.