4 ms·

It's okay to acknowledge that diversity has some downsides, and homogeny some upsides. We can be intellectually honest enough to admit this, right?

GeoAtreides 13d ago
are you asking if it's ok to acknowledge the upsides of racial purity? the things i read on hn...
- eudamoniac 13d ago
  It isn't ok to acknowledge that racial (cultural) homogeny has any benefit to a society whatsoever?
  - YeGoblynQueenne 13d ago
    Wait. Is it racial or is it cultural? There's a difference there. Do you believe it's possible to have cultural homogeneity without having racial homogeneity? Btw I think you're wrong: people can be extremely xenophobic with the folks from the next village over who are their cousins thrice removed. It's nothing to do with race or culture, just who's in the in-group and who's in the out-group, and what those are depends on a myriad of factors that "race" and "culture" are only convenient, but inaccurate, proxies for. Another example: Greek football fans from Athens will literally murder their counterparts from Thessaloniki, and they're all just as Greek as each other [1]. You just have to draw a line in the sand and people on either side of it will start throwing stones at each other. __________________ [1] Culturally of course. We're not a "race". Tiny little rant but with Nolan's Odyssey, there were the usual complains about Helen being played by a black woman etc. and people all over the internet were having fights about what real Greeks look like. Oh they have fair hair and light skin. No they have dark hair and olive skin. And so on. The truth is that most Greek families are like mine: one parent is fair-haired and light skinned (my dad: blond hair, green eyes, goes red in the sun; his mom: blond hair, blue eyes, skin like yogurt) and the other is dark-haired and dark skinned (my mom: brown hair, brown eyes, goes brown in the sun; her mom: black hair, black eyes, never sat in the sun). But stereotypes persist so me and one of my friends were asked how come we're both fair-haired with light-coloured eyes when true Greeks are brown and at the same time a friend recommended to me a concealer that was three tones darker than my actual colour even though I was standing right there in front of her eyes with my pasty-white skin. Race is not what it's made out to be. End rant.
    - eudamoniac 13d ago
      I think cultural is probably the thing that has benefits, but they are so intertwined that they're essentially the same or impossible to extricate. Anyone who has visited Japan can understand that there is some benefit to racial/cultural homogeny. It doesn't really matter which of the two is the important part when they cannot be extricated.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 11d ago
        Why Japan? How about the UK, or the US? Aren't those a bit more relevant? Those are certainly not racially homogeneous societies but why is it that racial differences are also cultural differences? Like, don't all Americans, black and white, love their guns for example? Or love baseball?
        eudamoniac 10d ago
        > Why Japan? How about the UK, or the US? Because Japan is the quintessential homogeneous westernish society that most are familiar with. UK and US are not homogeneous by any means. I could have said Poland or Estonia but that doesn't evoke an image of harmony like Japan does due to unfamiliarity (even though they too are largely harmonious). > why is it that racial differences are also cultural differences? Probably because race is equivalent to heritage which usually follows a cultural lineage unless one of the generations makes a big effort to assimilate to some other culture. Culture is inherited, and races are inherited. If a baby was born a completely random race unrelated to the parents, then this property wouldn't hold, but the way things are, race ~= culture. > Like, don't all Americans, black and white, love their guns for example? Or love baseball? No? Isn't it self evident that Americans don't all share a culture? Aside from the first generation immigrants that are obviously their own culture e.g. Chinatown, Black Americans have an entirely separate culture from White Americans, which have a different culture from Asian Americans. The only way this could change is if all the groups completely assimilate, which is not going to happen. Race isn't the only factor of course: if all the Japanese heritage Americans moved back to Japan, there would obviously be cultural tension there despite being the same race. But just the way history worked out, in most places and cases that could reasonably happen, racial homogeneity is approximately equal to cultural homogeneity. And when trying to achieve that, it's a lot easier to see that a person is of your race than to see that they are of your culture.

GeoAtreides 13d ago

are you asking if it's ok to acknowledge the upsides of racial purity? the things i read on hn...

eudamoniac 13d ago
It isn't ok to acknowledge that racial (cultural) homogeny has any benefit to a society whatsoever?
- YeGoblynQueenne 13d ago
  Wait. Is it racial or is it cultural? There's a difference there. Do you believe it's possible to have cultural homogeneity without having racial homogeneity? Btw I think you're wrong: people can be extremely xenophobic with the folks from the next village over who are their cousins thrice removed. It's nothing to do with race or culture, just who's in the in-group and who's in the out-group, and what those are depends on a myriad of factors that "race" and "culture" are only convenient, but inaccurate, proxies for. Another example: Greek football fans from Athens will literally murder their counterparts from Thessaloniki, and they're all just as Greek as each other [1]. You just have to draw a line in the sand and people on either side of it will start throwing stones at each other. __________________ [1] Culturally of course. We're not a "race". Tiny little rant but with Nolan's Odyssey, there were the usual complains about Helen being played by a black woman etc. and people all over the internet were having fights about what real Greeks look like. Oh they have fair hair and light skin. No they have dark hair and olive skin. And so on. The truth is that most Greek families are like mine: one parent is fair-haired and light skinned (my dad: blond hair, green eyes, goes red in the sun; his mom: blond hair, blue eyes, skin like yogurt) and the other is dark-haired and dark skinned (my mom: brown hair, brown eyes, goes brown in the sun; her mom: black hair, black eyes, never sat in the sun). But stereotypes persist so me and one of my friends were asked how come we're both fair-haired with light-coloured eyes when true Greeks are brown and at the same time a friend recommended to me a concealer that was three tones darker than my actual colour even though I was standing right there in front of her eyes with my pasty-white skin. Race is not what it's made out to be. End rant.
  - eudamoniac 13d ago
    I think cultural is probably the thing that has benefits, but they are so intertwined that they're essentially the same or impossible to extricate. Anyone who has visited Japan can understand that there is some benefit to racial/cultural homogeny. It doesn't really matter which of the two is the important part when they cannot be extricated.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 11d ago
      Why Japan? How about the UK, or the US? Aren't those a bit more relevant? Those are certainly not racially homogeneous societies but why is it that racial differences are also cultural differences? Like, don't all Americans, black and white, love their guns for example? Or love baseball?
      - eudamoniac 10d ago
        > Why Japan? How about the UK, or the US? Because Japan is the quintessential homogeneous westernish society that most are familiar with. UK and US are not homogeneous by any means. I could have said Poland or Estonia but that doesn't evoke an image of harmony like Japan does due to unfamiliarity (even though they too are largely harmonious). > why is it that racial differences are also cultural differences? Probably because race is equivalent to heritage which usually follows a cultural lineage unless one of the generations makes a big effort to assimilate to some other culture. Culture is inherited, and races are inherited. If a baby was born a completely random race unrelated to the parents, then this property wouldn't hold, but the way things are, race ~= culture. > Like, don't all Americans, black and white, love their guns for example? Or love baseball? No? Isn't it self evident that Americans don't all share a culture? Aside from the first generation immigrants that are obviously their own culture e.g. Chinatown, Black Americans have an entirely separate culture from White Americans, which have a different culture from Asian Americans. The only way this could change is if all the groups completely assimilate, which is not going to happen. Race isn't the only factor of course: if all the Japanese heritage Americans moved back to Japan, there would obviously be cultural tension there despite being the same race. But just the way history worked out, in most places and cases that could reasonably happen, racial homogeneity is approximately equal to cultural homogeneity. And when trying to achieve that, it's a lot easier to see that a person is of your race than to see that they are of your culture.