8 ms·

Indirectly related his video on music notation itself, "Notation Must Die: The Battle For How We Read Music"[1], is really good IMHO. > Many people feel that w

by Lio 13d ago

Indirectly related his video on music notation itself, "Notation Must Die: The Battle For How We Read Music"[1], is really good IMHO. > Many people feel that western notation makes it unnecessarily hard to read music. If we want to sight read, learn music theory or just practice an instrument, surely there's a better way? Right? This has been a hot topic for almost 1000 years... AND I PUT IT TO BED RIGHT HERE! 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3bUFgEcb4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3bUFgEcb4

korzinka 13d ago
Notation is cool and just right, the more I learned the more I appreciated how great contemporary notation is. Yes it's challenging to read sometines but the subject is challenging too, surely you could try to simplify it for certain applications but you'd lose a lot of flexibility. Fighting notation is like fighting piano keyboard which is also extremely convenient thing to play compared to other stuff, even to grid controllers.
- niek_pas 13d ago
  I find conventional Western notation works quite well for communicating notes, rhythms, and basic expression, but it breaks down pretty quickly once you move beyond that. E.g. a lot of the common techniques on electric guitar (bends, palm muting, tremolo/whammy bar stuff, pick slides, slap/thumping, pinch harmonics, raking) don't really have a convenient notational shorthand. That's without even mentioning synthesizers (how do you notate 'gradually increase the filter cutoff here'?) and DAWs, samplers, drum machines. But it's definitely a hard problem: the more information you try to shove into a notational system, the harder it gets for people to keep track of what everything means. Plus you just start running out of easily distinguishable symbols at some point.
  - KPGv2 13d ago
    > how do you notate 'gradually increase the filter cutoff here'? probably a standalone Italian word would be fine, or some special < like we have for gradually increasing volume
  - relaxing 13d ago
    Not sure what you consider convenient, but I’ve never had a problem reading electric guitar notation. It’s handled the same way we notate extended technique for other instruments - a combination of text above the staff, and squiggly lines on it :)
  - hatradiowigwam 13d ago
    I'm not sure what you are talking about wrt guitar and standard notation. Finger (PIMA) indication, staccato/legato, vibrato, tremolo, slurs, hammer, pulls, etc...it's all there. I don't see as much notation around hammer/pull as a classical player, but pick up a classical guitar music book sometime...you'll find that everything (guitar-related) you mentioned needing to be included, is already included.
  - sublinear 13d ago
    What?! I'm surprised those are the things you complain about regarding guitar sheet music. The only real problem is guitar always has several different ways to play the same notes all over the neck and instrument tuning isn't always specified either. Standard tuning may not work and tabs sometimes aren't there alongside the staff. If you're trying to sight read, you'll guess alright for a while until you are suddenly forced to make heroic leaps to the other end of the neck or painfully contort your fingers just so you don't miss a beat.
    - beepbooptheory 13d ago
      I guess I am maybe not coming from the same place you are here, but, fwiw, scores for classical guitar will often mark bare positions (basically, what fret your 1 finger is around) at certain points with Roman numerals, which then communicates, or at least implies, which string you are playing which note (for that part, until you see a new roman numeral). Also common to see simply a number on a specific note indicating a finger, as you do for a note+finger combo with piano scores, which then implies how to play the rest of the notes in that phrase or whatever. I don't think you need much more than that and it seems elegant enough to me! But also, really, I was always taught that unless the composer specifies something specific, you are free to figure it on your own. Like there are only so many contexts where the timbral differences between two unison, fretted notes is going to matter probably, right? Also, how you play some part might be informed by where you are after the preceding part etc. Tuning point though is kinda interesting and not all my wheel house. But they do call the default one standard for a reason!
      - sublinear 13d ago
        Yes. I am thinking about rock, jazz, and fingerstyle playing. They're hardly edge cases and haven't been for decades. They're so popular and modern enough to prove the original point. With regards to tuning, fingerstyle will often feature an arbitrary tuning unique to only a handful of songs. Timbre absolutely matters because you're playing multiple parts on one fretboard simultaneously. Here's an example of all three genres in one performance! Kent Nishimura covering Steely Dan's "Peg" in fingerstyle. He does have a book available. It combines ordinary sheet music with tablature. https://youtube.com/watch?v=x4sadPd661s https://youtube.com/watch?v=x4sadPd661s
  - thaumasiotes 13d ago
    > (how do you notate 'gradually increase the filter cutoff here'?) Use freeform text; it's a standard part of musical notation. Just because most of what you see on a score is some form or another of shorthand doesn't mean everything is. How do you think Tom Lehrer was able to indicate a tempo of "Pornissimo"? https://tomlehrersongs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/smut-music.pdf https://tomlehrersongs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/smut-m...
- Lio 13d ago
  > Fighting notation is like fighting piano keyboard Interestingly, the current form of a piano keyboard isn't only way keyed instruments have been laid out. My mind was blown when I first saw a harpsichord with separate flat and sharp keys for example because I never considered the concept. I grew up with pianos so in my ignorance I never really thought about them being different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_sharp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_sharp
  - jabroni_salad 13d ago
    there is also the janko keyboard. It looks a little scary but you can play in any key using the same hand shape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard
- somat 13d ago
  The fundamental problem in music notation is that it was designed for an 8 note system and we use a 12 note system. It's.. fine I guess, they got those extra four notes in there and millions of people read music with no problems. But it does create a lot of confusion for novice readers who now think those 8 notes are somehow more important than the other 4 or that the sharps and flats are somehow half notes(they are not, all 12 are equally spaced on a log scale) and don't even get me started on the confusing terminology, there are 12 notes in an octet, semitones? a fifth? a fifth of what? it is seven notes or 3/2's there is no 5. With regard to the piano keyboard, again not terrible, but it definitely is a compromise to fit the mechanical needs of the piano. I really like the design of the chromatic keyboard(ever see an accordion with the big hex grid of buttons, this is a chromatic keyboard), it has the advantage that whatever key you play a song in it has the same fingering, on a piano every key has different fingering, so there is a big skill barrier to changing keys that interferes with employment of such a critical aspect of playing.
  - ihujonigyin 13d ago
    To sum up: you don’t like the current notation system, terminology and piano keys but also don’t have anything else to add to the discussion other than “I don’t like it”.
    - somat 13d ago
      It is sort of like english spelling, we all know spelling in english sucks(So pointlessly difficult we have contests centered around the skill), we also all know we can do nothing to fix it. Still gonna complain about it however.
      - sedawkgrep 13d ago
        Sorta, except the video has many examples where folks tried to improve, but they ended up with more shortcomings than solutions. Ultimately standard notation is still the best we have.
      - dylan604 13d ago
- duped 13d ago
  > fighting piano keyboard Interestingly this is a strong thing to fight because there are pieces of music that are physically inaccessible to many players, particularly people with hands not wide enough for the intervals. No amount of practice or stretching can overcome it and you can't exactly travel with a piano or keyboard everywhere. There some cool things like the Janko keyboard that seem strictly superior to the traditional 12 keys but it's kind of an uphill fight to build conversion kits cheap and light and good enough to travel and perform with.
- analog31 13d ago
  I'm a musician, and am fluent at sight-reading. My perspective doesn't even consider the pro's and con's of conventional notation. The network effect is overwhelming. Written music involves a symbiosis between the composer and the performer. You have to find people who are willing to do both of those jobs, in sufficient number to make performances happen. If you choose a new or idiosyncratic notation system, nobody will play your stuff. In the future one could imagine automating the process of converting from one notation to another. But a lot of sheet music is still not in computer readable form. From what I've read, OCR'ing sheet music is still an unsolved problem.
andrepd 13d ago
His video about reality TV music, and the one about the newest musescore default font, are some of my favourite yt videos of all time. Great communicator.
pidgeon_lover 12d ago
How arrogant of the Musescore developers to think they know better than hundreds of years of historical music notation by actual musicians. Seems in line with their arrogant disregard for the community and bad Audacity overhaul and nonsensical rebranding.
- siriusfeynman 12d ago
  That's absolutely not the tone or conclusion of the video

by Lio 13d ago

korzinka 13d ago

Notation is cool and just right, the more I learned the more I appreciated how great contemporary notation is. Yes it's challenging to read sometines but the subject is challenging too, surely you could try to simplify it for certain applications but you'd lose a lot of flexibility. Fighting notation is like fighting piano keyboard which is also extremely convenient thing to play compared to other stuff, even to grid controllers.

niek_pas 13d ago
I find conventional Western notation works quite well for communicating notes, rhythms, and basic expression, but it breaks down pretty quickly once you move beyond that. E.g. a lot of the common techniques on electric guitar (bends, palm muting, tremolo/whammy bar stuff, pick slides, slap/thumping, pinch harmonics, raking) don't really have a convenient notational shorthand. That's without even mentioning synthesizers (how do you notate 'gradually increase the filter cutoff here'?) and DAWs, samplers, drum machines. But it's definitely a hard problem: the more information you try to shove into a notational system, the harder it gets for people to keep track of what everything means. Plus you just start running out of easily distinguishable symbols at some point.
- KPGv2 13d ago
  > how do you notate 'gradually increase the filter cutoff here'? probably a standalone Italian word would be fine, or some special < like we have for gradually increasing volume
- relaxing 13d ago
  Not sure what you consider convenient, but I’ve never had a problem reading electric guitar notation. It’s handled the same way we notate extended technique for other instruments - a combination of text above the staff, and squiggly lines on it :)
- hatradiowigwam 13d ago
  I'm not sure what you are talking about wrt guitar and standard notation. Finger (PIMA) indication, staccato/legato, vibrato, tremolo, slurs, hammer, pulls, etc...it's all there. I don't see as much notation around hammer/pull as a classical player, but pick up a classical guitar music book sometime...you'll find that everything (guitar-related) you mentioned needing to be included, is already included.
- sublinear 13d ago
  What?! I'm surprised those are the things you complain about regarding guitar sheet music. The only real problem is guitar always has several different ways to play the same notes all over the neck and instrument tuning isn't always specified either. Standard tuning may not work and tabs sometimes aren't there alongside the staff. If you're trying to sight read, you'll guess alright for a while until you are suddenly forced to make heroic leaps to the other end of the neck or painfully contort your fingers just so you don't miss a beat.
  - beepbooptheory 13d ago
    I guess I am maybe not coming from the same place you are here, but, fwiw, scores for classical guitar will often mark bare positions (basically, what fret your 1 finger is around) at certain points with Roman numerals, which then communicates, or at least implies, which string you are playing which note (for that part, until you see a new roman numeral). Also common to see simply a number on a specific note indicating a finger, as you do for a note+finger combo with piano scores, which then implies how to play the rest of the notes in that phrase or whatever. I don't think you need much more than that and it seems elegant enough to me! But also, really, I was always taught that unless the composer specifies something specific, you are free to figure it on your own. Like there are only so many contexts where the timbral differences between two unison, fretted notes is going to matter probably, right? Also, how you play some part might be informed by where you are after the preceding part etc. Tuning point though is kinda interesting and not all my wheel house. But they do call the default one standard for a reason!
    - sublinear 13d ago
      Yes. I am thinking about rock, jazz, and fingerstyle playing. They're hardly edge cases and haven't been for decades. They're so popular and modern enough to prove the original point. With regards to tuning, fingerstyle will often feature an arbitrary tuning unique to only a handful of songs. Timbre absolutely matters because you're playing multiple parts on one fretboard simultaneously. Here's an example of all three genres in one performance! Kent Nishimura covering Steely Dan's "Peg" in fingerstyle. He does have a book available. It combines ordinary sheet music with tablature. https://youtube.com/watch?v=x4sadPd661s https://youtube.com/watch?v=x4sadPd661s
- thaumasiotes 13d ago
  > (how do you notate 'gradually increase the filter cutoff here'?) Use freeform text; it's a standard part of musical notation. Just because most of what you see on a score is some form or another of shorthand doesn't mean everything is. How do you think Tom Lehrer was able to indicate a tempo of "Pornissimo"? https://tomlehrersongs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/smut-music.pdf https://tomlehrersongs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/smut-m...
Lio 13d ago
> Fighting notation is like fighting piano keyboard Interestingly, the current form of a piano keyboard isn't only way keyed instruments have been laid out. My mind was blown when I first saw a harpsichord with separate flat and sharp keys for example because I never considered the concept. I grew up with pianos so in my ignorance I never really thought about them being different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_sharp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_sharp
- jabroni_salad 13d ago
  there is also the janko keyboard. It looks a little scary but you can play in any key using the same hand shape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jank%C3%B3_keyboard
somat 13d ago
The fundamental problem in music notation is that it was designed for an 8 note system and we use a 12 note system. It's.. fine I guess, they got those extra four notes in there and millions of people read music with no problems. But it does create a lot of confusion for novice readers who now think those 8 notes are somehow more important than the other 4 or that the sharps and flats are somehow half notes(they are not, all 12 are equally spaced on a log scale) and don't even get me started on the confusing terminology, there are 12 notes in an octet, semitones? a fifth? a fifth of what? it is seven notes or 3/2's there is no 5. With regard to the piano keyboard, again not terrible, but it definitely is a compromise to fit the mechanical needs of the piano. I really like the design of the chromatic keyboard(ever see an accordion with the big hex grid of buttons, this is a chromatic keyboard), it has the advantage that whatever key you play a song in it has the same fingering, on a piano every key has different fingering, so there is a big skill barrier to changing keys that interferes with employment of such a critical aspect of playing.
- ihujonigyin 13d ago
  To sum up: you don’t like the current notation system, terminology and piano keys but also don’t have anything else to add to the discussion other than “I don’t like it”.
  - somat 13d ago
    It is sort of like english spelling, we all know spelling in english sucks(So pointlessly difficult we have contests centered around the skill), we also all know we can do nothing to fix it. Still gonna complain about it however.
    - sedawkgrep 13d ago
      Sorta, except the video has many examples where folks tried to improve, but they ended up with more shortcomings than solutions. Ultimately standard notation is still the best we have.
    - dylan604 13d ago
duped 13d ago
> fighting piano keyboard Interestingly this is a strong thing to fight because there are pieces of music that are physically inaccessible to many players, particularly people with hands not wide enough for the intervals. No amount of practice or stretching can overcome it and you can't exactly travel with a piano or keyboard everywhere. There some cool things like the Janko keyboard that seem strictly superior to the traditional 12 keys but it's kind of an uphill fight to build conversion kits cheap and light and good enough to travel and perform with.
analog31 13d ago
I'm a musician, and am fluent at sight-reading. My perspective doesn't even consider the pro's and con's of conventional notation. The network effect is overwhelming. Written music involves a symbiosis between the composer and the performer. You have to find people who are willing to do both of those jobs, in sufficient number to make performances happen. If you choose a new or idiosyncratic notation system, nobody will play your stuff. In the future one could imagine automating the process of converting from one notation to another. But a lot of sheet music is still not in computer readable form. From what I've read, OCR'ing sheet music is still an unsolved problem.

andrepd 13d ago

His video about reality TV music, and the one about the newest musescore default font, are some of my favourite yt videos of all time. Great communicator.

pidgeon_lover 12d ago

How arrogant of the Musescore developers to think they know better than hundreds of years of historical music notation by actual musicians. Seems in line with their arrogant disregard for the community and bad Audacity overhaul and nonsensical rebranding.

siriusfeynman 12d ago
That's absolutely not the tone or conclusion of the video