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> You assert this without evidence. I mean, there are plenty of instances if you are willing to look... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_electora

by Hobadee 14d ago

> You assert this without evidence. I mean, there are plenty of instances if you are willing to look... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_electoral_fraud_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_electoral_fra... Hackers rather trivially were able to hack optical scan machines back in the 90s or early 2000s. Defcon famously has its voting village, where hackers hack voting machines via numerous means. If you think this isn't happening (or at least being attempted) in reality (by either party, and/or outside countries) you are naive. > That's not how rights work. Would you say that there should be a "barrier to entry" for freedom of speech or gun rights? Yes, there is a barrier of entry for freedom of speech and gun rights; it's called holding on to freedom itself, and it is a VERY difficult and bloody ordeal that can be lost extremely quickly if not protected. (See all non-free countries, or even parts of Europe where you can now be jailed for making certain comments online.) I never said the barrier for entry should be a test, like the "literacy tests" we implemented during Jim Crow, but if you aren't willing to give up something for your freedom, you probably don't deserve it. (Not saying you must necessarily give something up, just that you must be willing to give something up.)

hackyhacky 14d ago
> I mean, there are plenty of instances if you are willing to look I am willing to look and I see exactly zero cases of widespread, organized, mail ballot voting by non-citizens of the type that Republicans say is widespread, despite lack of evidence. What I do see is low-level cases of some guy filling out two voter registration forms in an effort to win a local election and getting caught immediately, which are cases that Republican proposals would do nothing to prevent. > Hackers rather trivially were able to hack optical scan machines back in the 90s or early 2000s Curiously, this case was not in the list of fraud cases that you yourself provided. > Yes, there is a barrier of entry for freedom of speech and gun rights; it's called holding on to freedom itself, That's not what I asked. Do you have to show your ID before you are allowed to use your freedom of speech? No you don't. Rights don't have a barrier to entry: they are available to everyone. > if you aren't willing to give up something for your freedom, you probably don't deserve it. (Not saying you must necessarily give something up, just that you must be willing to give something up.) Again, that's not how rights work. The Bill of Rights doesn't say "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ... unless the person in question gives vibes suggesting that they don't love the the US of A, go America." You can vehemently disagree with your country and still get rights, including the right to vote. > I never said the barrier for entry should be a test, like the "literacy tests" The Republican proposal under question specifically requires people to get a government issued ID that proves citizenship, while ~10% [1] of the US population lacks such ID. That sure sounds like a barrier of entry designed to exclude classes of "undesirable" people. [1] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/213-million-american-citizens-voting-age-dont-have-ready-access https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/213-...

by Hobadee 14d ago

hackyhacky 14d ago

> I mean, there are plenty of instances if you are willing to look I am willing to look and I see exactly zero cases of widespread, organized, mail ballot voting by non-citizens of the type that Republicans say is widespread, despite lack of evidence. What I do see is low-level cases of some guy filling out two voter registration forms in an effort to win a local election and getting caught immediately, which are cases that Republican proposals would do nothing to prevent. > Hackers rather trivially were able to hack optical scan machines back in the 90s or early 2000s Curiously, this case was not in the list of fraud cases that you yourself provided. > Yes, there is a barrier of entry for freedom of speech and gun rights; it's called holding on to freedom itself, That's not what I asked. Do you have to show your ID before you are allowed to use your freedom of speech? No you don't. Rights don't have a barrier to entry: they are available to everyone. > if you aren't willing to give up something for your freedom, you probably don't deserve it. (Not saying you must necessarily give something up, just that you must be willing to give something up.) Again, that's not how rights work. The Bill of Rights doesn't say "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ... unless the person in question gives vibes suggesting that they don't love the the US of A, go America." You can vehemently disagree with your country and still get rights, including the right to vote. > I never said the barrier for entry should be a test, like the "literacy tests" The Republican proposal under question specifically requires people to get a government issued ID that proves citizenship, while ~10% [1] of the US population lacks such ID. That sure sounds like a barrier of entry designed to exclude classes of "undesirable" people. [1] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/213-million-american-citizens-voting-age-dont-have-ready-access https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/213-...